Least Fave Scooby Member/s

[Clare]

I thought I would move this topic from the "Fave scooby member" thread as it is a good topic to discuss and I think it deserves it's own thread...

cyclica said:

Are there any scooby members you *didn't* like?

I for one didn't like willow much in seasons 6 and 7. She was just annoying.

[partcynic]

- Never a huge fan of Xander, but I stopped liking him in Dead Man's Party. Really disliked him in S6/S7.
- Stopped liking Buffy in Season Five, and had no interest in her during S6/S7.
- Disliked Willow in S6 after her mind-rape of Tara.
- Despised Dawn and Andrew throughout.

[Clare]

Erm well I didn't like Willow throughout Season 6 and Xander really annoyed me in Season 7. And yeah, Dawn pretty much annoyed me the whole time too.

[cyclica]

Huh what was so wrong with xander? Aside from dead man's party I mean.

[Clare]

Why I didn't really like him in Season 7 was because of the way he didn't stick up for Buffy when the Slayerettes kicked her out of her own home. I mean, I know she got him injured but they'd been friends for 7 years and then he just goes and sides against her? Hmm....

[cyclica]

Hmm I can see why they guys were upset, buffy was being a pain... but I dunno why they had to kick her out. She could have stuck around and let faith be in charge or something.

For me xander in s7 was kinda in the background, I didn't notice him enough to dislike him.

[partcynic]

Huh what was so wrong with xander? Aside from dead man's party I mean.

Ha, now that's a big question. I'll try and answer it as well as I can.

There are two basic ways someone can look at Xander in this respect - you have an assessment of his overall personality, and some kind of moral judgement. Moral first - and we have Xander helping save the lives of many, but also causing the fiery deaths of some (OMWF). If this is just a case of numbers, then Xander comes out well - but most moral systems (and the other Buffy characters) would agree that saving many doesn't justify killing one. As such, he comes out roughly even here (although there's a definite problem with the fact that he didn't come clean about the musical spell when people started dying).

Onto his personality, and here's where the slime starts dripping. First of all, I'm glad we agree that he's indefensible in Dead Man's Party (he's both a terrible friend and a terrible human being in that one), but I'd also add his lie in Becoming to the list. While it was a perfect addition to the episode, it's very clear that Xander's actions were motivated not by a desire to save the world, but to make Angel die (not caring that he's Buffy's true love). This is somewhat debatable in terms of intent (although Dead Man's Party supports my interpretation), but regardless of that, it's still an awful betrayal of his two closest friends - and those two things alone are enough to drop him way down the likeability list.

Then there are his other questionable deeds, presented in digestible fragments:
- Was really nasty to Buffy when she first turned him down (sure, his feelings were hurt, but he took it to the wrong place with his 'undead' jab).
- Continued to be constantly petty and cruel about Angel at every opportunity he could get, not caring that Buffy truly loved him. (Imagine a friend of yours incessantly putting your significant other down - for no real reason but jealousy - in front of you: would they stay your friend much longer?)
- Tried numerous times to have Angel killed.
- Blackmailed Amy into casting the mind-spell on Cordelia but ended up getting everyone else (okay, he didn't take advantage of Buffy or Willow, but praising him for that is like rewarding someone who drugs and kidnaps a girl, but then doesn't rape her).
- Cheated on Cordelia and betrayed her trust.
- Left Anya at the altar instead of dealing with his doubts the other 2000 times he could have done so.
- Trying to kill Spike after he slept with Anya (and since the attack was about romantic jealousy and not ridding the world of vampires, it counts as attempted murder). Let's not forget his whole moral high horse and telling Anya she makes him sick - what right did he have to deem who she could be with after he betrayed her and broke her heart?
- Turning on Buffy in Empty Places and kicking her out of her own home - and then appointing a new leader who made the exact same errors. (Although all of the characters are ridiculous in that ep - they're played by the same actors, but aren't the same people we've known for the past 7 years).

I'm sure there are more, but those are the main ones for now. If there's one theme that's recurrent with Xander, it's that he's a betrayer - and has done it constantly since S2, with almost no condemnation from the show. Although he's certainly not alone in this moral area (Willow's there too with her mind-rape of Tara, which was far more evil than killing Warren), he comes out the worst because he's never had to pay for any crime but leaving Anya - and while Spike, Buffy, Willow and Faith have all had their behaviour called out by the writers and the fans, Xander hasn't had that. I loved the scene in Angel where Lilah tells Wesley that the lowest place in Hell is reserved not for sadists like Spike or murderers like Angel, but for betrayers - and that's exactly where Xander stands.

[cyclica]

If I may address some of your points-

Sept 19, 2007, 12:12pm, partcynic wrote:...but also causing the fiery deaths of some (OMWF)....(although there's a definite problem with the fact that he didn't come clean about the musical spell when people started dying)

I agree with this one, the whole ending to this episode was terrible, like they couldn't come up with a real way to end the story so they just blamed xander, and hoped the audience would forgive and forget because he's so darn loveable.

Sept 19, 2007, 12:12pm, partcynic wrote:...but I'd also add his lie in Becoming to the list. While it was a perfect addition to the episode, it's very clear that Xander's actions were motivated not by a desire to save the world, but to make Angel die (not caring that he's Buffy's true love).
- Continued to be constantly petty and cruel about Angel at every opportunity he could get, not caring that Buffy truly loved him. (Imagine a friend of yours incessantly putting your significant other down - for no real reason but jealousy - in front of you: would they stay your friend much longer?)
- Tried numerous times to have Angel killed.

Angel was a vampire! Its easy to look back now after watching him in LA for 5 years and say he's a good guy, but to xander he's just a vampire, not only that but angel's the reason he's not with buffy. Of course xander wants angel dead! Its not like angel proved himself to be heroic during his time in sunnydale, he occasionally helped out now and again because he loved buffy, and besides by 'becoming' xander was more familiar with angelus. Xander wanting angel dead doesn't make him evil or a betrayer, well certainly not enough to warrent the condemnation you think he deserves. And when did xander ever try to have angel killed?

Sept 19, 2007, 12:12pm, partcynic wrote:- Was really nasty to Buffy when she first turned him down (sure, his feelings were hurt, but he took it to the wrong place with his 'undead' jab).

Xander ain't perfect, he's only human. Pretty much every character has been a jerk at some point.

Sept 19, 2007, 12:12pm, partcynic wrote:- Blackmailed Amy into casting the mind-spell on Cordelia but ended up getting everyone else (okay, he didn't take advantage of Buffy or Willow, but praising him for that is like rewarding someone who drugs and kidnaps a girl, but then doesn't rape her).

Amy deserved a little blackmailing, she was cheating using witchcraft after all. And I agree it was wrong for him to force cordy to love him, but bear in mind he was heartbroken, she had dumped him just because he didn't fit in with her image, and on valentines day. He was only human, he made a mistake, fortunatley it backfired on him and he ended up learning his lesson, its all part of growing up.

Sept 19, 2007, 12:12pm, partcynic wrote:- Cheated on Cordelia and betrayed her trust.

Yeah I agree that was a bad thing for him and willow to do, but then it didn't make any sense anyway, except that they were pandering to the xallow shippers, and making cordy single so she can be free to go to LA at the end of the year.

Sept 19, 2007, 12:12pm, partcynic wrote:- Left Anya at the altar instead of dealing with his doubts the other 2000 times he could have done so.

Ok yeah that one was indefencable. Not to mention not making any sense.

Sept 19, 2007, 12:12pm, partcynic wrote:- Trying to kill Spike after he slept with Anya (and since the attack was about romantic jealousy and not ridding the world of vampires, it counts as attempted murder). Let's not forget his whole moral high horse and telling Anya she makes him sick - what right did he have to deem who she could be with after he betrayed her and broke her heart?

Again I agree with you on this one, he shouldn't tell her who to date. But bearing in mind he's always seen vampires as just monsters, you can see why he would be disgusted that anya would choose to be with a vampire, especially a known murderer/rapist.

Sept 19, 2007, 12:12pm, partcynic wrote:- Turning on Buffy in Empty Places and kicking her out of her own home - and then appointing a new leader who made the exact same errors. (Although all of the characters are ridiculous in that ep - they're played by the same actors, but aren't the same people we've known for the past 7 years).

It's not like he personally opened the door and threw her out, all he said was that he didn't see her point.

[partcynic]

Heya, glad to see your response, not being able to post in the picture etc threads is frustrating, but at least I can contribute here!

Good to see we agree on the silliness of OMWF and Hell's Bells. But some stuff I'm not sure about the defences for.

On vampires:

Angel was a vampire!
[...]
But bearing in mind he's always seen vampires as just monsters, you can see why he would be disgusted that anya would choose to be with a vampire, especially a known murderer/rapist.

Not sure how Angel/Spike being vamps alleviates Xander's actions here. At best, it makes him a hypocrite and a bigot - he had no problem with Anya (who's probably responsible for an equal - if not way more - number of tortures and horrible deaths as they are, jokes about her killings quite frequently, and almost never displays remorse. It's even possible that she had her human soul while doing all of those things, while Angelus and Spike didn't). So if he's okay to sleep with a mass murderer, he has no right to condemn others for doing so.

to xander he's just a vampire, not only that but angel's the reason he's not with buffy.

Yes, and that's the root of why it's problematic. Xander didn't want Angel dead because he was ending the world, it was because he was jealous! And in doing so, he betrayed both of his best friends in a horrible way (by lying about Willow's spell - if you think his behaviour in Dead Man's Party is wrong, you should find this off too; they're directly linked). Now most males would be a bit envious and angry like that, but it needed to go away a lot faster (there are very few eps in S2/S3 when Xander doesn't say something nasty about Angel - he should have respected the fact that Buffy loved him deeply and stopped running his mouth all the time). Regardless of his personal feelings, justifiable or not, his actions still make him a major jerk (Giles behaved far better, and suffered much more from Angelus' going evil). At any rate, Dead Man's Party alone is enough to drop him to the bottom of the Scooby pile.

As for Empty Places, I'll point out that I'm not too fussed on that one. I think it's the worst ep of the series, and the only one to completely toss away all the characters - so I don't hold the kicking out to be a major downpoint (certainly not to the level of Becoming or Dead Man's Party.)

Obviously, I'll say that I don't have a major hate-on for Xander. Most of the time, his being a jerk is the best way for the story to go (not in Hell's Bells, but that's another post). It's just that fans in general seem to be way more critical of Buffy, Angel, Willow and Spike than they are of Xander, so I think he deserves a bit more of a kicking. And since this discussion isn't necessarily about whether his actions are acceptable in the overall context (but rather whether they make him a likeable character to me), I'm happy to continue pointing out his flaws.

[cyclica]

I think when it comes to anya its a combination of his being desperate, and of him seeing her as a human, at least she was when they first met. Or maybe its just the irrationality that is love.

Hey looking back at your previous post, you didn't like buffy in s5? Why not? I can't think of any time in s5 when I didn't like her.

[cyclica]

Partcynic, you can answer now.

[partcynic]

^ Yep, I know. Been very busy, will post a reply in the next couple of days.

[partcynic]

Ack - I hate letting posts slip. Time to catch up on this one.

Hey looking back at your previous post, you didn't like buffy in s5? Why not? I can't think of any time in s5 when I didn't like her.

For me, the root of Buffy being unlikeable in S5 was mostly due to Dawn (as we've talked about before, I have major problems with the character, her introduction and what it did to the show). I remember watching Real Me for the first time, seeing that scene where Buffy was whining and bitching at Riley in the graveyard and realising that it was the first instance in 4+ years where I couldn't care less about her. I felt that forcing Dawn into the series pushed Buffy into a role that she wasn't really supposed to go in, and I had no interest in her relationship with her sister (something that really harms the season overall, since you have to like Dawn or at least feel Buffy's concern for her in order for the main plot to work). As such, hearing Buffy constantly complain about how much she wishes she was an only child was just grating, and her early talk on how she'd let the world die before Dawn in "The Gift" just came across as petulant instead of heroic (which is what it was supposed to be. The entirety of s5 was meant to examine Buffy as a person instead of the Slayer, cumulating in her grand realisation of her humanity and her loving sacrifice at the end; the ultimate demonstration of such - but it's always come across as a suicide dive and easy way out from her suffering, which I don't think is what Joss intended).

So Dawn is basically the reason Buffy irritated me in S5. Factor in some of her other questionable actions (her behaviour in Into the Woods is a little eyebrow-raising in this context), and I find that Buffy was at her least likeable from the first five years. I still enjoyed the character and SMG's performance, but she was far more sympathetic when undergoing equal/greater trauma in S2.

[cyclica]

But surely if you don't like dawn, and buffy doesn't like dawn, then that should make you like buffy all the more?

As you know I like dawn and as such didn't have a problem with buffy in s5. The only times I disliked her were during her spuffy phase, and both of her angel appearances.

[partcynic]

^ You and your pesky logic. Let's just say I dislike watching any character whine. That usually explains most of my character/episode dislikes.

I agree about Buffy on "Angel" - she's annoying to watch there because she's portrayed as having almost no positive qualities. I get that they want Angel to look good on his show, but they went a bit far in making Buffy an antagonist IMO.