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Post by Angelica on Nov 10, 2007 1:53:39 GMT -5
Why I didn't really like him in Season 7 was because of the way he didn't stick up for Buffy when the Slayerettes kicked her out of her own home. I mean, I know she got him injured but they'd been friends for 7 years and then he just goes and sides against her? Hmm.... But Willow didn't stick up for Buffy either, and they been friends for 7 years. So if you hate Xander for that reason, that means you don't like Willow either.... I don't have a less favorite. I love them all. Without Dawn, Willow, Xander and the rest, it just won't be Buffy the vampire slayer....it would be....boring. |
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Post by partcynic on Dec 1, 2007 13:16:52 GMT -5
^ It's quite justifiable that many wouldn't like Xander in Empty Places (or any other character for that matter) - because no-one acts like the people we'd been watching for 6+ years. It's not that they grew or changed; everyone just has completely different personalities. Factor in all of Xander's other nasty behaviour throughout the series, and disliking him in Empty Places doesn't equal disliking the others.
I don't see why the show would be "boring" if one (or a few) characters were altered or removed. Watching Dawn screech and whine episode after episode sounds like the very definition of "boring" to me.
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Post by Twisted Slayer on Jun 15, 2010 15:00:20 GMT -5
1) How the hell could you NOT like BUFFY??? I mean, she the whole damn show!!!!!!!!
2) I've always liked Xander because his humor often made my family laugh out loud.
3) How could you NOT like Willow???
4) I've never seen how Buffy was being a bitch during season seven, to me she was just fine.
5) Spike is not a known rapist--he TRIED to rape Buffy, once, but he was in pain (not that that makes it any better), but he also regretted it after Buffy kicked him off, in case you've forgotten how he looked when she got up crying, and then when he got to his crypt, and he flashbacked and that's the whole reason he went to get his soul back.
6) Xander doesn't deserve any condemnation. He's never betrayed anyone! And he only wanted to get Angel killed once, in "Revelations," but that was because he was pissed off because of Angel's killing spree in season two. And when Xander jabbed at Buffy when she turned him down, he was heartbroke, and he was human. That doesn't mean he deserves to be hated for it. When Anya slept with Spike, Xander was, once more, angry and heartbroken and to him all vampire's deserve to die, and he was probably still angry at Spike for his attempted rape on Buffy.
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Post by partcynic on Jun 15, 2010 16:03:21 GMT -5
Buffy is one character in an ensemble cast, and is by no means the whole show. During her time, she did plenty of things that people could object to, and thus dislike her for.
As with Buffy, posters in this thread have said why they disliked Willow at certain points in the show. Expressing a dislike for a character's actions at one point (or even over a season or two) doesn't necessarily mean a person hates that character, period.
Although you do make the point yourself ("not that that makes it any better"), you're stepping on problematic ground by using the 'intent' defense. The fact that he was "in pain" gave him no right to try and force himself on Buffy, and his regret doesn't mitigate it either. It just changes him from 'irredeemably awful' to 'awful'. I think you'll also find that he is indeed guilty of sexual battery/rape - he also forcibly penetrated Buffy despite her saying no on the Bronze balcony in "Dead Things".
(Just a note: Anyone responding to that last point with 'oh, but she enjoyed it and didn't push him off once it started' will be given the side-eye and advised to do some basic reading on Sexual Assault and Rape Culture. I'm not joking).
How are you defining 'betrayal'? Cheating on Cordelia and lying to Buffy about Willow/the restoration spell are textbook examples of the concept, and many of his other actions fit one of the word's more general 'disloyalty' meanings.
So he tried to get an innocent man killed, but only did it once. Does that make it okay?
Yep - Xander's human, and of course he'll make mistakes. But you're again using intent to deflect the character's responsibility for his actions. Being angry or hurt doesn't make his behaviour not-bad, nor remove it from the realm of criticism.
Spike/Anya slept together in "Entropy", one ep prior to the attempted rape ("Seeing Red").
NB - One thing I will quickly repeat is that disliking some things a character does doesn't mean you irrevocably hate them (which is the impression I've gotten as to what you've made of our old posts). You can have problems with the actions a character makes but still think those behaviours were the best thing for the story, and find them enjoyable in that way.
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Post by cyclica on Jun 18, 2010 18:12:12 GMT -5
Wow, this thread's almost 3 years old and I've yet to give my own list of least favourite scoobies.
- Angel in s3, especially all those dull topless exercise scenes.
- Buffy in s6, when she's part of the spuffy subplot at least (loving or hating him).
- Spike in the spuffy subplot, especially in s6. By s7 the spuffy had become more dull than annoying, and the fact that he had a soul made it a bit more bearable, as I could at least see some kind of future in their relationship.
- When spike was 'the doctor' in 'as you were'.
- Willow after she started messing with tara's mind, though she wasn't too annoying in 'same time, same place'.
- Giles in s7. I didn't really hate him, I just didn't see the point of him for most of the time. The characters didn't need him anymore, but he came back and stuck around just so the fans can look at him.
- Kennedy
- Any time buffy appears on Angel, though especially 'sacrifice'.
- Willow on 'orpheus'. I found her annoying the entire time, especially when she had lines like 'smash-o-crash'.
...
I thought xander only wanted angel killed because giles was injured, and xander assumed angel had become the killer angelus. Xander hated angel but he never really tried to kill him.
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Post by partcynic on Jun 19, 2010 16:15:25 GMT -5
Did you mean "Sanctuary"?
But as Buffy says, "this has nothing to do with jealousy' (i.e. everything to do with it). Aiming a loose cannon at Angel (not Angelus - he knew that Angel was cured) was a pretty low action, even if he was angry and upset about Giles. It was mainly intended as a middle finger to Angel for existing, as well as to Buffy for still having feelings for him.
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Post by cyclica on Jun 21, 2010 16:42:06 GMT -5
^ Yes I did mean sanctuary. eep.  I thought he didn't know angel was cured, that buffy and angel had recently got back together and he must have lost his soul again. |
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Post by Twisted Slayer on Jun 26, 2010 2:06:29 GMT -5
Buffy is one character in an ensemble cast, and is by no means the whole show. During her time, she did plenty of things that people could object to, and thus dislike her for. As with Buffy, posters in this thread have said why they disliked Willow at certain points in the show. Expressing a dislike for a character's actions at one point (or even over a season or two) doesn't necessarily mean a person hates that character, period. Although you do make the point yourself ("not that that makes it any better"), you're stepping on problematic ground by using the 'intent' defense. The fact that he was "in pain" gave him no right to try and force himself on Buffy, and his regret doesn't mitigate it either. It just changes him from 'irredeemably awful' to 'awful'. I think you'll also find that he is indeed guilty of sexual battery/rape - he also forcibly penetrated Buffy despite her saying no on the Bronze balcony in "Dead Things". (Just a note: Anyone responding to that last point with 'oh, but she enjoyed it and didn't push him off once it started' will be given the side-eye and advised to do some basic reading on Sexual Assault and Rape Culture. I'm not joking). How are you defining 'betrayal'? Cheating on Cordelia and lying to Buffy about Willow/the restoration spell are textbook examples of the concept, and many of his other actions fit one of the word's more general 'disloyalty' meanings. So he tried to get an innocent man killed, but only did it once. Does that make it okay? Yep - Xander's human, and of course he'll make mistakes. But you're again using intent to deflect the character's responsibility for his actions. Being angry or hurt doesn't make his behaviour not-bad, nor remove it from the realm of criticism. Spike/Anya slept together in "Entropy", one ep prior to the attempted rape ("Seeing Red"). NB - One thing I will quickly repeat is that disliking some things a character does doesn't mean you irrevocably hate them (which is the impression I've gotten as to what you've made of our old posts). You can have problems with the actions a character makes but still think those behaviours were the best thing for the story, and find them enjoyable in that way. By the way, sorry about my explosion; didn't really try and view it from what you said. |
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Post by partcynic on Jun 26, 2010 5:03:02 GMT -5
cyclicaNope - he knew Angel was cured from the big Scooby argument in the library. Sending Faith after Angel was just trying to get back at Buffy for still having feelings for him. *** Twisted SlayerNo problem. I appreciate you saying that.
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Post by Twisted Slayer on Jun 27, 2010 3:11:48 GMT -5
Yep. And, now that I actually think about what you said, a whole lot of it is well-said and quite true. But sometimes my love for the show gets in the way of reasoning when it comes to good/bad stuff...
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