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Post by partcynic on Feb 24, 2015 18:13:41 GMT -5
3x03 "That Old Gang of Mine"
"Angel"'s first true flop, even Tim Minear (who wrote it) hates "That Old Gang of Mine". With the exception of Fred's material, positives are few and far between, and the plot is a heavy-handed, cliche-ridden mess that wants to condemn racism, yet ends up condoning it.
Likes
- Parts of the humour. It occasionally feels forced (the transitions between hyper-brooding Angel and campy Angel make him feel like two different characters), but the faux-apology to Merl - and Angel's being at the top of his 'enemies' list - are pretty amusing.
- The interaction between Cordy and Fred is good. We see hints of classic Cordy in her hesitance to speak with Fred, and then witness her caring side when she prioritises Fred's safety/welfare when Caritas is attacked. That said, this positive is undercut by the season's switch in running order - this ep was originally supposed to be second (and "That Vision Thing" third), and the inversion makes the relationship play oddly - we've already seen the two characters interact with each other, and Fred has already gotten out of the hotel (with her visit to Cordy's apartment).
- Fred is the episode's only consistently good component. I loved her choice to sing "Crazy", and turning the crossbow on Gio (complete with detailed description of how it would kill him) was a great moment of strength.
Dislikes
- Caritas has protection against demon violence, but not human violence? Does that make any sense from any perspective? I thought it was supposed to be a sanctuary, full stop. Didn't Lorne warn Lindsey about getting whomped by magic when he tried to raise his hand to Angel in "Dead End"?
- Manufactured Gunn/Angel tension when they're investigating Merl's death. Why was Gunn two hours late? Were we supposed to think that his (horribly FX-ed) nightmare about Alonna was enough to make him suddenly touchy about Angel, when the two of them have been pretty much fine since "Disharmony"?
- As I've stated multiple times before, Gunn's issues/backstory with his gang makes no sense. We still don't have a legitimate, in-character reason for Gunn to abandon them (did he never go home in the evenings? It's not like Angel Investigations had cases 24/7), and Gunn's explanation of 'if I couldn't save Alonna, how could I help you' (paraphrased) is weak and unconvincing. If the writers really wanted to do a story about him having issues with working for a vampire, it should have happened a year ago. As is, it's contrived, comes from nowhere, and produces no meaningful development.
- Gio is one of the worst one-shot characters in the series. Played by an atrocious actor with terrible diction, the character is a sad caricature who appears to have intimate psychological knowledge of Gunn despite never having met him. There's no reason for the gang to have appointed him their new leader (why's he even present? Why not have Rondell or someone who was actually betrayed by Gunn in that position?), and I've no idea what was going on when Lorne read him (who was 'she'? What happened to her? Why should I see this as anything but an eleventh hour attempt to give a failed character depth?)
- "Angel" becoming "CSI" with Wesley's numbered evidence bags, showing an approach the team had never employed before, and would never use after.
- Angel has had orgies with the Furies? When, exactly? Is there any being alive that he hasn't encountered at some point? An embarrassing attempt at comedy that sat awkwardly with the scenes at the club.
- It's hard to even attempt to discern this episode's theme. The racial/minority group metaphor is one that "Angel" has often utilised, and part of it works, with conflict occurring because of Gunn's gang's indiscriminate murder of demons simply because they're demons, and not because they're dangerous. However, the analogy soon fails, and enters downright bizarre territory in the end, as Gunn receives no criticism for his statement that he can never be friends with Angel 'on account of what he is' (though he was happy to accept money from him last year!) As a result, the message the show sends is that it's fine to dislike/hate/think less of a being on the basis of their membership in a certain class - and even okay to kill them - as long as you don't take pleasure in doing it. Horrid.
Summary
Trite, preachy garbage that can't even keep its message straight. I'd rather watch "Wrecked", which was at least funny in its boldfaced badness.
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Post by cyclica on Mar 7, 2015 18:47:30 GMT -5
That said, this positive is undercut by the season's switch in running order - this ep was originally supposed to be second (and "That Vision Thing" third), and the inversion makes the relationship play oddly - we've already seen the two characters interact with each other, and Fred has already gotten out of the hotel (with her visit to Cordy's apartment). I found that odd too, though not implausible. Perhaps fred has not left the hotel in a week? I did like the illyira foreshadowing though. Fred is talking to plants already.  - Caritas has protection against demon violence, but not human violence? Does that make any sense from any perspective? I thought it was supposed to be a sanctuary, full stop. Didn't Lorne warn Lindsey about getting whomped by magic when he tried to raise his hand to Angel in "Dead End"? - Manufactured Gunn/Angel tension when they're investigating Merl's death. Why was Gunn two hours late? Were we supposed to think that his (horribly FX-ed) nightmare about Alonna was enough to make him suddenly touchy about Angel, when the two of them have been pretty much fine since "Disharmony"? - Gio is one of the worst one-shot characters in the series. Played by an atrocious actor with terrible diction, the character is a sad caricature who appears to have intimate psychological knowledge of Gunn despite never having met him. There's no reason for the gang to have appointed him their new leader (why's he even present? Why not have Rondell or someone who was actually betrayed by Gunn in that position?), and I've no idea what was going on when Lorne read him (who was 'she'? What happened to her? Why should I see this as anything but an eleventh hour attempt to give a failed character depth?) I enjoyed this ep more than you, but I am having a hard time refuting most of your negatives. I suppose they just didn't bother me as much, and I was just happy that gunn's past received some attention again, no matter what the context or how nonsensical, or how poor a 'climax' to its arc it is. - As I've stated multiple times before, Gunn's issues/backstory with his gang makes no sense. We still don't have a legitimate, in-character reason for Gunn to abandon them (did he never go home in the evenings? It's not like Angel Investigations had cases 24/7), and Gunn's explanation of 'if I couldn't save Alonna, how could I help you' (paraphrased) is weak and unconvincing. If the writers really wanted to do a story about him having issues with working for a vampire, it should have happened a year ago. As is, it's contrived, comes from nowhere, and produces no meaningful development. Agreed that the episode addresses issues that should have been addresses earlier, but I can't find a better place within the show to 'slot' this episode in. Maybe gunn should have stayed behind during the trip to plrtz glrb, or caught up with them later in that arc? As for where he goes in the evenings, well where do any of them go? Though going back to his friends and old home seems like the only logical thing he would be doing, after all he has no real reason to never see his old friends. I suppose he must be living at the hotel at this point, just hanging out with wes and cordy all day. It would be nice if the show made that clearer though. - "Angel" becoming "CSI" with Wesley's numbered evidence bags, showing an approach the team had never employed before, and would never use after. It's so they can preserve the fingerprints, and track down the humans responsible. Not that they have any fingerprints on file to compare them to though. - Angel has had orgies with the Furies? When, exactly? Is there any being alive that he hasn't encountered at some point? An embarrassing attempt at comedy that sat awkwardly with the scenes at the club. I can buy that angelus might have 'encountered' the furies before, but then they did call him 'angel'. I can't see the souled angel being so irresistible while he was mostly moping on the streets eating rats. - It's hard to even attempt to discern this episode's theme. The racial/minority group metaphor is one that "Angel" has often utilised, and part of it works, with conflict occurring because of Gunn's gang's indiscriminate murder of demons simply because they're demons, and not because they're dangerous. However, the analogy soon fails, and enters downright bizarre territory in the end, as Gunn receives no criticism for his statement that he can never be friends with Angel 'on account of what he is' (though he was happy to accept money from him last year!) As a result, the message the show sends is that it's fine to dislike/hate/think less of a being on the basis of their membership in a certain class - and even okay to kill them - as long as you don't take pleasure in doing it. Horrid.
Gio's gang are basically a bunch of faiths- they have fun killing and don't care about anything they may be doing wrong. I get the impression the point of the episode was simply to have angel and co face a faith-like adversary, and end the episode with a big 'event'. It looks to me like the episode was built around having a big, tense final act in caritas... but they didn't put enough thought into the steps they took to get there, creating a message they didn't intent to make.
I suppose what I liked about the episode was basically the tension of knowing there will be an inevitable confrontation, the danger to our heroes in the final act in caritas, and individual moments and lines - and I mentally skipped over the parts that didn't seem right to me.
Do demons represent racial minorities or don't they? If they do, why do team angel (and buffy!) kill them on patrols? I don't think they do represent racial minorities (or at least shouldn't), but if they don't, why in this episode should gunn care if his gang is killing 'harmless' demons, if they are all evil?
As for the final scene, I have to assume gunn didn't mean what he said when he said he and angel can never be friends, certainly later episodes would have him warm more to angel (and lorne, spike etc). Though it still doesn't feel like it fits in with anything else in the ep.
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Post by partcynic on Mar 11, 2015 15:26:33 GMT -5
^I don't have any specific extra comments to make regarding "That Old Gang of Mine" - like you said, it seems that we're in agreement regarding its problems, so the issue is more about whether we think those problems completely sink the ep or not. Just posting this to let you know that I have both read and appreciated your comments. *** 3x04 "Carpe Noctem"A decent standalone I wouldn't mind seeing again. "Carpe Noctem" is akin to "I Fall to Pieces" in feeling like an okay story penned by someone who wasn't fully clued-up on Buffyverse writing. Despite some significant flaws, it remains a fun offering, mainly due its humour and brisk pacing. Likes- Acknowledging and taking steps towards resolving Fred's crush on Angel. Cordelia is very effective as the group's heart, and her raising the issue, pushing Angel to deal with it, and soothing Fred were all satisfying. - Generally good movement and action. - Fred continues to be one of the best parts of the season. It's weird that the 'ramble endlessly about everything' style the writers have given her is usually grounds for awfulness, but Amy Acker really makes it endearing, and can also pull off more dramatic, emotional scenes. Fred's incredibly cute in her early 'date' enthusiasm and reaction to Marcus-Angel's suggestion that they go out on the town, and highly sympathetic when Cordy finds her crying in the elevator. - Gavin is a dull character with tedious plans, but I liked seeing Lilah work to undermine him. It was also believable that she'd be interested in sex with Angel - though they could never work as a couple, the mutual resentment could make for some good hook-ups. - The body swap produces some respectable comedy, the best part being Marcus' confusion over 'Fred' and his awkward chat with Wesley. That scene alone makes the episode worthwhile, and is a neat callback to the running 'Angel's orientation' joke from S1. Dislikes- The plot is a mishmash of two "Buffy" episodes ("Witch" and "Who Are You"), but without the intelligence, thematic depth or character development of either. Instead, it's just a generic bodyswap story, as could be written for and aired by hundreds of fantasy and sci-fi shows. - Angel just stands there while a potentially dangerous man recites what sounds like a spell? Wouldn't he take some kind of effort to ensure he couldn't finish it? - The actor playing Marcus (and then, Angel) did nothing to convince me he was either character. He's fine when expressing Marcus' anger, but the rest is unimpressive, to the extent where all of his 'Angel' scenes needed to be completely redone. - The Marcus-as-Angel stuff drags - his 'hit on every woman in sight' schtick got boring quickly. - Angel, who is immortal, almost dies while in Marcus' body, and this has no impact on him? It's true that he faces death in fighting demons, but he came genuinely close to it here. This was an ample opportunity for insight, and a more skilled writer would have realised that. SummaryI thought more of "Carpe Noctem" upon rewatching it, though it won't be bothering my top eps any time soon. If I ignore the rehashed plot, it's a good, generic case-of-the-week story a la "The Ring" or "Happy Anniversary", and there's nothing wrong with one of those every now and then. |
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Post by cyclica on Mar 22, 2015 15:59:15 GMT -5
- The plot is a mishmash of two "Buffy" episodes ("Witch" and "Who Are You"), but without the intelligence, thematic depth or character development of either. Instead, it's just a generic bodyswap story, as could be written for and aired by hundreds of fantasy and sci-fi shows. Being such a overused story, it's hard to think of much to say about the ep. I was certainly watchable, with moments I enjoyed, and jokes that worked, but not much that sticks with me after the episode is over. Just once I'd like to see a tv show have a body swap episode where they actually permanently stay in the swapped bodies at the end of it. It was also believable that she'd be interested in sex with Angel - though they could never work as a couple, the mutual resentment could make for some good hook-ups. That short moment was probably the best part of the episode, jokes aside. Lilah and angel definitely had some chemistry, not that I necessarily wanted to see them as a couple, but knowing she is attracted to him certainly adds another fun layer to their relationship. - The actor playing Marcus (and then, Angel) did nothing to convince me he was either character. He's fine when expressing Marcus' anger, but the rest is unimpressive, to the extent where all of his 'Angel' scenes needed to be completely redone. It didn't completely gel for me either, though it wasn't so bad as to ruin the episode for me. I suppose the inherent problem is that Marcus as himself is supposed to come across differently than Marcus-in-angel's-body. When he is being angel, he is living out his desires (at some times, and maintaining his cover as angel at others), but as himself he's pretending to be an innocent, harmless man. We never get to see Marcus as himself, being himself. If we saw that, seeing 'angel' behave the same way would make for a more consistent character. |
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Post by partcynic on Mar 25, 2015 16:07:38 GMT -5
It sounds like we're very close in opinion regarding this one - it's nice enough, but doesn't have the special kick of the good and great Angel eps. And yes, it would be neat for a body swap ep to have long-term consequences rather than being quickly resolved. Though I guess most creators would be worried about it upsetting the fans.
Agreed again. Like you, I wouldn't want a relationship between them, but the chemistry`was genuine - far more believable in a few seconds than Fred and Gunn were for the rest of the season.
Good perspective. I think there were meant to be some scenes with Marcus having a visit from his family (and being his unpleasant self), but they got cut for time. Maybe things would have improved if they'd been kept in... though if they were as stilted as Marcus' other scenes, perhaps their excision was for the better.
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Post by partcynic on Mar 25, 2015 16:09:20 GMT -5
3x05 "Fredless"
The best episode of S3, "Fredless" is "Family" done right. Like "Rm w/a Vu" and "Guise will be Guise" before it, this is an excellent character/actor showcase that elegantly presents, analyses and resolves its central figure's predicament, producing much development in the process.
Likes
- Wesley and Cordelia roleplaying Angel and Buffy. A classic "Angel" comedy moment whose jabs at the more melodramatic aspects of the Bangel relationship are more than deserved.
- A nice mystery with Fred's contraption. It's great that it proves important to the plot.
- Roger and Trish are believable, likeable family for Fred. The episode does a good job of making their early intentions ambiguous, and I love the twist that they're perfectly normal, caring people. A "Buffy"/"Angel" cliche is that parents are always absent, neglectful or abusive (and if they're good, they're either dead or get killed), and it's satisfying to see it inverted, especially when the others discuss the Burkles once they've left, and point out just how uncommon loving relatives are in their world.
- Nice comedy with the gang trying to conceal the supernatural from the Burkles. It's also refreshing that they accept it so quickly and easily after the bug demon attack (I laughed at Trish splatting the monster with the bus).
- Lorne's dialogue is excellent, and I appreciated seeing someone be angry with Gunn after his case-tampering got Caritas trashed and put the entire team's lives at risk.
- Fred's breakdown at the bus stop. Her desire to evade her parents because seeing them would require her to explain herself - which would, in turn, require that she accept everything that had happened to her - made complete sense, developed the character, and seamlessly closed the 'are Fred's parents evil?' part of the plot. It was well-acted, too.
- Even more Fred development. The second half of the episode raises the important issue of who exactly she is to (and within) the gang, and answers it succinctly. It's hard not to feel for her as she describes everyone's role in the team and realises that she doesn't really have one, and her ensuing conversation with Angel (in her room) is beautifully written. The goodbye scene is itself touching, and her ultimate realisation that she belongs with the gang is highly believable (good job with keeping those crystals a running thread throughout the ep). We also get the lovely ending where she literally paints over her old fantasy, determined to now accept and approach her life for what it is. That's a hell of a lot of character insight/progression for 42 minutes, and it all flows perfectly.
Dislikes
- Horrible shaky-cam and slow-mo in most of the bug demon scenes. I presume it was done to compensate for the costumes' poor mobility, but it made those bits awkward and unpleasant to watch.
- Humour is ninety percent good, but it sometimes gives the impression of trying too hard (the cliched 'character throws something and it smashes offscreen glass' joke). A common show tendency since Pylea is to push so hard for jokes that the characters verge on stumbling out-of-character. For example, the new Angel character is fun, but seems only distantly related to the Angel we've been watching for the last five years.
Summary
A fantastic offering for both Fred and the show, and possibly the last truly great "Angel" episode.
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Post by cyclica on Apr 12, 2015 15:38:00 GMT -5
- A nice mystery with Fred's contraption. It's great that it proves important to the plot. I would have loved to see her make more of these contraptions in later eps. - Roger and Trish are believable, likeable family for Fred. The episode does a good job of making their early intentions ambiguous, and I love the twist that they're perfectly normal, caring people. A "Buffy"/"Angel" cliche is that parents are always absent, neglectful or abusive (and if they're good, they're either dead or get killed), and it's satisfying to see it inverted, especially when the others discuss the Burkles once they've left, and point out just how uncommon loving relatives are in their world. It was a really good twist that she wasn't afraid of her parents because of anything they had done, but just because she's afraid to see them and admit to herself that the last 5 years or so really happened. Though if they had gone that route and make the parents evil, that would have made for a horrible story, and I was worried that is what they would do on my first time watching, before the twist. - Lorne's dialogue is excellent I loved his refusing to play along and pretend he was making a monster movie. "It's just a little eye-liner." It's hard not to feel for her as she describes everyone's role in the team and realises that she doesn't really have one This part works on an emotional level, but I don't like the idea that everyone should have some kind of special skill to be 'worthy' to be in the gang. It's a problem with buffy too, they gave everyone except xander a useful skill, then so he wouldn't be left out they made up some rubbish about him being able to 'see things clearer' than anybody else. Can't it just be a group of people who want to do good? Do they have to draw attention to everyone's skill, and make the characters look like a bunch of tropes? Cordy is the heart- oh come on. I can understand fred feeling this way, but I still dont' think the writers needed to go this route. possibly the last truly great "Angel" episode. It's certainly one of my favourite season 3 eps, but last great angel ep? We may have some disagreements up ahead. |
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Post by partcynic on Apr 14, 2015 7:45:34 GMT -5
Me too. As far as I can remember, the only other incidence of this was in "Billy". Yep! And kudos to the writers for not trudging down the same old path. Good point. I think that the shows worked best prior to the clear delineation of character roles (like how in "Buffy" S1 Willow and Xander could go from being assets to liabilities based on the scenario). That said, part of creating a workable character dynamic is having a mix of personalities, where each personality's presence is justified. Because of that, there's going to be an almost inevitable gravitation to some kind of role system. It only really causes a problem when it's tacked-on (Xander being 'the one who sees') or flattens formerly complex characters (Gunn forgetting his past as a leader and becoming 'the muscle'). Bring it on! Though note I said 'truly great' episode (meaning to the excellent standard that could stand with the best of S1/2). There are a fair number of later eps that I enjoy and/or think of as good, so we might not be headed for much disagreement after all. |
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Post by partcynic on Apr 14, 2015 7:48:34 GMT -5
3x06 "Billy"
The final part of the deceptively good portion of the season (sans "That Old Gang of Mine", of course), "Billy" is pretty solid - if you can ignore its sledgehammer moralising.
Likes
- Angel training Cordy. It leads to a couple of fun scenes, makes sense for the characters, and establishes the episode's theme well.
- Excellent material for Cordy. Despite its misguidance, her guilt was understandable (and a further sign of her compassion), and her scene with Lilah was well-written, with some prime moments of bitch-Cordy shining through. She's also good when confronting Billy at the end - it was almost a shame Angel/Lilah had to step in and stop her from finishing him off.
- Nice stuff for Lilah. Stephanie Romanov's acting was strong throughout (and on first viewing, the Gavin attack was pretty shocking); highlights being the aforementioned chat with Cordy, and then calming killing Billy at the end.
- Wes and Fred at the Hyperion. The second act break (where it subtly becomes apparent that he's been 'infected') is genuinely creepy, and the ensuing homage to "The Shining" is suspenseful, as well as giving Fred another moment of pure cool ("you forgot that I also like to build things...") Very good closer between them, too - it's interesting that the 'monster showed me parts of myself, and the fact that I could be so horrible means we can't be together' motif was recycled for "Hell's Bells".
- Angel's explanation of why Billy's power didn't affect him worked. It makes sense he's long since past holding beliefs about people as classes - even when he was evil, he killed for food or for fun, and not because of the victims' group memberships.
Dislikes
- The theme is at the "Wrecked" level of non-metaphorical bludgeoning, with cliches in abundance. I know that Joss Whedon studied feminist film theory and thus learned that all men are vicious monsters, but it would have been nice if he'd then grown up and learned to see males as they actually are. The simplistic 'men evil, women good' themes his shows keep spewing out aggravate me more and more as I get older, to the point that my dislike of the man is starting to taint my opinion of his works. That said, this episode was at least better than the similar "Beauty and the Beasts", and it concerned the main characters rather than stereotyped victims-and-perpetrators of the week.
- Wesley's sudden regression to his S1 foppishness. The early conversation he had with Cordy was the kind of thing we would have heard between Buffy and Willow in "Buffy" S1 - only that convo would have fit the characters and been age-appropriate. At some point, the writers need to realise that Wes is in his late twenties/early thirties, and is hardly a blushing innocent (remember the implication in "Dear Boy" that he'd just had a one-night stand?) The um-ing and ah-ing over asking Fred out is annoying and adds nothing to our understanding of the characters, and it sucks that what happened during this ep was used to fuel two years of soap opera-style 'will they, won't they' that ultimately came to nothing.
- The scene with Angel at the Blim compound is strange. Angel breaks in and finds himself faced with the police, only to learn that Billy called them himself so they could arrest him on suspicion of murder. Why exactly would he do that? Sure, he might enjoy being snide and winding them up, but it seems like a pointless exercise engineered to progress the plot (allowing the gang to obtain that bloody handprint).
- Lilah should have faced some kind of consequence for killing the nephew of a wealthy and powerful client, no matter her intentions. Even if no-one besides Angel and Cordelia saw her, wouldn't the congressman who worked to get him out want to learn exactly what had happened? And how did she know where Billy was in the first place?
Summary
An overblown, politics-over-quality ep that just about gets away with it due to some good tension and strong performances from Charisma, Stephanie, Amy and Alexis.
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Post by cyclica on Apr 22, 2015 13:36:09 GMT -5
My re-watch of angel has finally caught up with this thread, so this episode is still fresh in my mind. I am not a big fan of this episode, though I don't hate it. The message is too obvious for me, but there's enough good scenes for me to not find it painful to sit through. I liked that all the main characters had a role to play, although gunn didn't really appear enough. After watching billy's first appearance in That Vision Thing, I was initially hoping we would have some explanation as to who put him in the fire prison, and why he seemed so unfazed when he was freed. In this follow-up, we never had answers. Nor do who know how he got his powers, all we know is that he is 'more human' than angel, whatever that means. I realise it isn't important to the story, but it feels like bad writing whenever people simply 'have powers'. And just where has he been this whole time anyway? I know it was said he went 'for a walk', but if he causes trouble everywhere he goes on a near constant basis, why is team angel only learning about this now? Why not the very next day after being released? - Wes and Fred at the Hyperion. The second act break (where it subtly becomes apparent that he's been 'infected') is genuinely creepy, and the ensuing homage to "The Shining" is suspenseful, as well as giving Fred another moment of pure cool ("you forgot that I also like to build things...") Very good closer between them, too - it's interesting that the 'monster showed me parts of myself, and the fact that I could be so horrible means we can't be together' motif was recycled for "Hell's Bells". I wonder if it was too soon in the Wesley/Fred arc to have such a major stumbling block as Wesley turning evil (and feeling ashamed at the end), given that it was only the start of this same episode that the arc was started. Perhaps Wesley could have expressed an attraction in the previous episode? Still, this sequence was probably my favourite part of the episode, certainly it's what makes the ep memorable. Minor nitpick- I wish fred had built something on par with her decapitation device though, rather than her home-alone style heavy thing on a rope. - Angel's explanation of why Billy's power didn't affect him worked. It makes sense he's long since past holding beliefs about people as classes - even when he was evil, he killed for food or for fun, and not because of the victims' group memberships. I dunno, it sounded a little self-contradictory to me. He was never angry *and* he got his anger out years ago? It's a goot line of dialogue, but I don't think it actually applies. It's not like angel is never angry in other eps. He still has anger in him, as much as anyone else does anyway (certainly where W&H is involved). I know that Joss Whedon studied feminist film theory and thus learned that all men are vicious monsters, but it would have been nice if he'd then grown up and learned to see males as they actually are. The simplistic 'men evil, women good' themes his shows keep spewing out aggravate me more and more as I get older, to the point that my dislike of the man is starting to taint my opinion of his works. That said, this episode was at least better than the similar "Beauty and the Beasts", and it concerned the main characters rather than stereotyped victims-and-perpetrators of the week. I haven't sought out many interviews with joss whedon so I don't know much about what he's like. However, I have watched every ep of buffy, angel and firefly, and most of agents of shield (though not dollhouse), and aside from season 7 of buffy, I haven't seen these views 'spewing out' to that much of a degree. I'm curious, what kinds of things has he been saying? - The scene with Angel at the Blim compound is strange. Angel breaks in and finds himself faced with the police, only to learn that Billy called them himself so they could arrest him on suspicion of murder. Why exactly would he do that? Sure, he might enjoy being snide and winding them up, but it seems like a pointless exercise engineered to progress the plot (allowing the gang to obtain that bloody handprint). Good point. Why did he want to be arrested anyway? - Lilah should have faced some kind of consequence for killing the nephew of a wealthy and powerful client, no matter her intentions. Even if no-one besides Angel and Cordelia saw her, wouldn't the congressman who worked to get him out want to learn exactly what had happened? And how did she know where Billy was in the first place? There should be some consequences for gavin too, after his attack on lilah. If not from W&H bosses then retribution from lilah herself. |
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Post by partcynic on Apr 27, 2015 13:47:51 GMT -5
Well done! Did you end up doing the "Buffy" and "Angel" eps together like you mentioned in the other thread? I remember you saying you had new appreciation for "Buffy" S1 after seeing it again - did you have any similar reactions to other seasons or episodes?
I agree regarding the unknown source of Billy's powers, and the general lack of answers/resolutions. That said, I recall reading somewhere that
he was supposed to have been the son of a human woman who was raped by a demon (hence his powers), which would have made the story in this ep even more preachy and ham-fisted. Seems like a case of 'choose your poison' concerning the plot here.
Definitely! Those scenes would be my main reason for rewatching this ep.
I'll admit that 'spewing out' was hyperbole on my end, though "Buffy" S7 comes dangerously close there, doesn't it? I don't pay a huge amount of attention to Joss myself, but I know he's claimed that all men suffer from 'womb envy', and has been an ally/supporter of a particularly noxious feminist 'pop culture critic' (I won't mention her by name). He also recently went after a movie trailer for being apparently being 70s-ish in its sexism, when his own shows have quite a bit of similar material. Going into everything would take away from what this thread's about, but let's just say that his feminist posturing is very much of the 'do as I say, not as I do' variety, and the hypocrisy irritates me to no end. That, and what happened with Charisma Carpenter (which we'll be able to discuss a little later, since it impacts significantly on S3).
Another good point. It could have been quite interesting to see how W&H (or at least the classic W&H) would respond to such an occurrence - I presume they'd side with whomever they felt was the greatest asset to the firm.
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Post by partcynic on Apr 27, 2015 13:58:30 GMT -5
The Birth of Connor Arc
3x07 "Offspring"
3x08 "Quickening"
3x09 "Lullaby"
I'm going to pull a Pylea here and review these three episodes as one, as there isn't enough content in them to justify individual write-ups. Most of what happened here was okay, but there were plenty of problems and not enough good scenes. It was a huge gamble derailing both the season and the show in service of the Connor story, and these eps suggest it wasn't worth it (later ones prove it). For a narrative that took two hours, there's next to no plot or character development, and the pacing is far too slow - much like Pylea, a whole episode could have been excised with minimal impact.
Likes
- Gavin having had the hotel bugged. Nothing special, but it's good to know he isn't a complete idiot.
- A few respectable moments of comedy (Angel pretending to be okay after being hit by Cordy; Darla having no problem with the humans being killed to feed her; no-one wanting to sit in the back seat of the car after her water broke).
- Lilah is always fun to watch, even when delivering weak threats or stale repartee. I like her continued ambivalence and interest in number one, and she gets comparatively witty lines.
- Sahjhan's dialogue is consistently funny. More in this vein would be fine, though the character doesn't interest me.
- Julie Benz is excellent in all of her scenes, especially with Angel on the rooftop and then in the rain-soaked alley. Those two parts were the only ones to feel real or possess true emotion, and Darla staking herself was a fine way to give Connor a Macduff-style 'birth'.
Dislikes
- As already stated, this is far, far too slow. It needed much more of a plot to be worthwhile.
- Characters being reduced to plot-puppets. With the exceptions of Fred's increasingly annoying, witless ramblings, you could give any line to any character and have nothing in the story change.
- The sudden discussion of the Nyazian scrolls. These silly prophecies are the basis of a two-season arc, so it would have been nice for them to have been mentioned (even fleetingly) beforehand. It almost feels like the first six eps were intended to be part of a different season, and then had this superglued onto them.
- The Nyazian scrolls are being held by a random guy, who despite having shelled out hundreds of thousands of dollars on mystical curios neither locks his doors, fits an alarm, or has any kind of security or protection. Wesley then dissuades him from calling the police by stating that one of his items is chemically similar to GHB, and the guy yields, like he couldn't have called the cops and then disposed/hidden the materials in the meantime. Right.
- Fred's corny romcom role, being the one to see Angel and Cordelia's forced 'love' and set the ball rolling. The ensuing 'Angel realises he likes Cordy' bits were pretty embarrassing, as was the 'I love you' joke (would Gunn ever chime in there? I thought Angel could never even be his friend on account of his vampirism).
- Cordelia's sudden protectiveness of pregnant Darla (and anger at Angel) is contrived to make you think she's jealous, and left even dumber by her later reverting to normal and slapping Darla. Her explanation that she just forgot what Darla is doesn't fly - and even if Cordy temporarily lost her senses, why wouldn't the others say something about her being alone with an unpredictable, soulless vampire?
- Retconning Angel/Darla sex as something he forced her into. Using her was certainly wrong, but it wasn't rape. There are also lots of minor errors as the characters discussed what happened (Angel saying they slept together multiple times when it was only once; Lorne being shocked by the news when he was actually the first person Angel told).
- Holtz is a terribly bland and uninteresting character. If he was intended to be a major player in a yearlong arc, then he needed to be a multidimensional character with a rich history, and not just a man in search of vengeance. Though I sympathise with his losses, I don't care about him, his murdered family or his vendetta, and his material subsequently drags. After all, Angel and Darla killed thousands of people's families - why should I care more about this one?
- Holtz can easily beat an armed squad of men with just a sword, and none of the guys fire their weapons. Completely stupid and unbelievable - he appears to be as tough as Glory!
- Linwood is to Holland what Gavin is to Lindsey. When did he become the head honcho? What happened to Nathan Reed? And what was up with that weird line about leaving his wife?
- Far too many shallow characters created to force comedy. The voice replicating repairman, dorky translator, failed psychic and chicken-leg doctor were all ridiculous (not to mention the return of the terrible Sisters and their tired 'mmm, Angel' jokes).
- Angel drops a grenade at his feet, it violently detonates... and he doesn't get blown to pieces. Hmm.
- Too many incidences of one character realising the gang is surrounded and alerting the others, before a super-easy fight (if Fred can triumph over you in battle, you're a pathetic villain).
- Losing Caritas. It was a believable, entertaining source of humour and plot/character progression, and all of Lorne's best material was connected to it.
- Losing Darla. A fantastic character gone for a completely unnecessary and overdone plot.
Summary
"Angel" needlessly becomes a "Buffy" S6-style soap opera with an ordinate amount of time spent on very little. Not a terrible mini-arc, but a harbinger of doom that paves the way for multiple upcoming disasters.
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Post by cyclica on May 6, 2015 13:57:26 GMT -5
Well done! Did you end up doing the "Buffy" and "Angel" eps together like you mentioned in the other thread? I remember you saying you had new appreciation for "Buffy" S1 after seeing it again - did you have any similar reactions to other seasons or episodes? To be honest, I found both shows had improved to some degree. The bad episodes and annoying characters don't annoy me quite so much anymore (even kennedy, for the most part). Perhaps its because I'm marathoning, or because I've seen more bad tv shows now and buffy/angel look better in comparison.
I'm even softening to 'Showtime', I found it bearable to watch. I may have to find a new worst episode (perhaps 'The killer in me').
Then again, the next episode I have to watch is 'Touched', and I remember hating it when I last saw it (maybe ten years ago!), so perhaps that will be my worst.
Expect a review coming soon!
You've got me curious now. |
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Post by cyclica on May 6, 2015 15:28:02 GMT -5
Most of what happened here was okay, but there were plenty of problems and not enough good scenes. I liked these episodes a little more than you, but they're not among my favourites, and do drag a little at times. - Julie Benz is excellent in all of her scenes, especially with Angel on the rooftop and then in the rain-soaked alley. Those two parts were the only ones to feel real or possess true emotion, and Darla staking herself was a fine way to give Connor a Macduff-style 'birth'. I loved the idea that Darla had a soul because her baby has a soul, and she knew if the baby was born she would no longer have a soul- she knows she will kill her own baby. I almost wish they had done more with this idea, though I don't know what else they could have done. Darla staking herself in the rain to give conner life is definitely the highlight of the trilogy of episodes, and one of my favourite 'angel' moments of the whole show. - Characters being reduced to plot-puppets. With the exceptions of Fred's increasingly annoying, witless ramblings, you could give any line to any character and have nothing in the story change. Harsh criticisms there! I didn't have a problem with the characters, though I did notice cordy being pushed into the background during the arc. It was the first time since the show began that she didn't feel like an integral part of the show, and that the show can work fine without her. - The sudden discussion of the Nyazian scrolls. These silly prophecies are the basis of a two-season arc, so it would have been nice for them to have been mentioned (even fleetingly) beforehand. It almost feels like the first six eps were intended to be part of a different season, and then had this superglued onto them. The first time watching I assumed these scrolls were the same ones that mentioned the shanshu prophecy. It wasn't until it was specifically mentioned that it was an earlier, different scroll that I realised they were different. It's bizarre how the nyazian scrolls are treated as though the audience is meant to already know what they are. Where did they come from, how do we know they are so important? They should have just been the shanshu scroll, and just say Wesley has translated a part of it that they hadn't read before. - The Nyazian scrolls are being held by a random guy, who despite having shelled out hundreds of thousands of dollars on mystical curios neither locks his doors, fits an alarm, or has any kind of security or protection. Wesley then dissuades him from calling the police by stating that one of his items is chemically similar to GHB, and the guy yields, like he couldn't have called the cops and then disposed/hidden the materials in the meantime. Right. Agreed. He could easily have shot wes and gunn (waiting until after gunn put the orbs down), then hid the 'GBH' later. Still, it was nice seeing old, bumbling wesley one last time (until 'Spin the bottle' anyway). - Fred's corny romcom role, being the one to see Angel and Cordelia's forced 'love' and set the ball rolling. The ensuing 'Angel realises he likes Cordy' bits were pretty embarrassing, as was the 'I love you' joke (would Gunn ever chime in there? I thought Angel could never even be his friend on account of his vampirism). I enjoyed the humour in these eps. I liked the how they kept coming back to the plastic flowers, it was almost impressive how they managed to get such material from them. - Holtz is a terribly bland and uninteresting character. If he was intended to be a major player in a yearlong arc, then he needed to be a multidimensional character with a rich history, and not just a man in search of vengeance. Though I sympathise with his losses, I don't care about him, his murdered family or his vendetta, and his material subsequently drags. After all, Angel and Darla killed thousands of people's families - why should I care more about this one? Agreed. I guess the only thing that makes holtz different to anyone else whose lives have been ruined by angelus and darla, is that holtz is a good fighter. Except we never see him fight, ever. He has enough of an imposing presence that he doesn't come across as totally ridiculous, but honestly I can't see him really posing a threat or winning a fight. - Holtz can easily beat an armed squad of men with just a sword, and none of the guys fire their weapons. Completely stupid and unbelievable - he appears to be as tough as Glory! It's awfully convenient the cameras went out at that exact moment, otherwise they'd have to somehow make it convincing that this guy can defeat several armed men in a fight. Not to mention show how bad guys with guns can't hit a target right in front of them. - Linwood is to Holland what Gavin is to Lindsey. When did he become the head honcho? What happened to Nathan Reed? I mentioned before that I find annoying characters less annoying on my re-watch. This does not apply to linwood; if anything the opposite is true. W&H in season 3 is far more about lilah that it is an ensemble like it was in season 2. Linwood and gavin are just characters in her story, adversaries and obstacles to overcome (I believe the drive-in movie scene at the end of the season is the only time linwood ever as a scene without lilah). With that in mind, I can only assume the whole intention of his character is to be a boss lilah wouldn't respect. We've had the worthy mentor in Holland, now let's see how she deals with taking orders from an incompetent with power over her. Which wouldn't be so bad, if only they had a decent actor to play the part. Unfortunately the guy they chose just doesn't hold up compared to the actors who played Holland or Nathan, or even lee mercer or the one-off lawyer who told lilah and lindsey they'd be joint heads after Holland died. The actor needs to convey a certain amount of creepiness and suspiciousness to play a W&H lawyer, but linwood comes across as just unpleasant. They should have just had Nathan continue in the role, or at least explained what happened to him. Strangely, my old vhs copy of these eps mentions Nathan, as joining lilah in going after angel. I always wondered how they could have made the mistake of putting his name on there when he doesn't even appear this season, unless maybe he was intended to appear, and was dropped after the vhs synopsis was written. - Angel drops a grenade at his feet, it violently detonates... and he doesn't get blown to pieces. Hmm. You've got to love grenades that only destroy the chains, and don't harm the person that's being chained. |
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Post by partcynic on May 14, 2015 8:34:43 GMT -5
Agreed. As I've stated, I am in no way fond of this arc or its consequences for the series as a whole, but I could isolate and extract any part of it for preservation, it would be those Darla scenes.
I know I'm being mean, but it was hard not to be. Watching S1 and S2, a Cordelia line was different to a Wesley line, which was in turn different from an Angel line - the characters had individual voices that you could detect even when just reading the scripts. In these eps, everything is so plot-driven and expository that you can switch around character lines in certain scenes and not have anything seem out of place.
Tying this stuff to the Shanshu scrolls would have indeed been better. I still can't understand what the writers were thinking by abruptly introducing the Nyazian ones like this - it's on par with the stupid scythe in "Buffy".
It's been well over a year since I wrote these reviews, but I don't remember the flowers... shows how much of an impact it made on me. I'll keep an eye out for it if I ever watch these eps again.
Holtz is a major stumbling block in this arc for me (though there are other, bigger ones present). We'll get into those once we get to the applicable eps, but one thing I'll say now is that Holtz is even worse when you realise summoning him makes no sense in terms of Sahjhan's plot/goals.
This is an excellent summary of S3 W&H/Lilah vs the previous seasons, and it hits all of the major points (and problems). It baffles me that the writers took something that was once so cool and ominous and turned it into a total joke. Worse, it wasn't even a funny joke.
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