Rate the eps!

[cyclica]

As with the list of buffy eps I made, this it a list of Angel episodes ranked by how much I enjoy them (not by how well written I think they are), from best to worst. And discussion is welcome.

Spin the bottle
Fredless
Harm's way
Not fade away
Birthday
Life of the party
Time bomb
Orpheus
You're welcome
Rm w/a vu
Disharmony
The house always wins
Carpe noctum
The girl in question
Provider
Salvage
Over the rainbow
Through the looking glass
There's no place like plrtz glrb
The magic bullet
Are you now or have you ever been?
Guise will be guise
Why we fight
Shiny happy people
The ring
Apocalypse nowish
Sense and sensitivity
That vision thing
The shroud of rahmon
Lineage
That old gang of mine
Conviction
The cautionary tale of numero cinco
I fall to pieces
Shells
Smile time
In the dark
Underneath
Belonging
Judgement
Lonely hearts
Unleashed
Calvary
The thin dead line
Power play
Habeas corpses
Happy anniversary
Just rewards
Supersymmetry
City of
The price
Sacrifice
Waiting in the wings
Players
Heartthrob
Origin
Blind date
Slouching towards bethlehem
The bachelor party
Offspring
Couplet
Untouched
Parting gifts
A new world
Soul purpose
Dad
War zone
Home
Double or nothing
Expecting
Hellbound
Redefenition
Sleeptight
Epithany
First impressions
Destiny
The trial
Lullaby
Blood money
I've got you under my skin
Awakening
Somnambulist
Long day's journey
Billy
Loyalty
A hole in the world
To shanshu in la
Five by five
Reunion
Eternity
Quickening
Reprise
Soulless
The prodigal
Benediction
Peace out
Dead end
Tomorrow
Forgiving
Inside out
Darla
I will always remember you
Ground state
Release
Damage
Dear boy
Hero
Sanctuary
Deep down
She

I'm treating the 3 pylea episodes like one long episode, sorry but I can't remember what events took place in what eps, they are all blended together in my memory.

Since I made this list 2 years ago and am now watching angel all the way through again, I may update this list sometime soon.

[partcynic]

First, a disclaimer: these ratings aren't as solid as my “Buffy” ones, as I don’t have my "Angel" scale so firmly conceived. For the moment, I'm going to keep this just for S1 and 2, but will edit/update later with the rest - namely because it's been a while since I saw S4/5, and want to reassess them (and hopefully, soon).

3 1x13 She
3 1x15 The Prodigal
3 2x20 Over the Rainbow
3 2x21 Through The Looking Glass
3 2x22 There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb

4 1x04 I Fall To Pieces
4 1x06 Sense and Sensitivity
4 1x14 I've Got You Under My Skin
4 2x03 First Impressions
4 2x04 Untouched
4 2x08 The Shroud of Rahmon
4 2x14 The Thin Dead Line
4 2x19 Belonging

5 1x02 Lonely Heart
5 1x07 The Bachelor Party
5 1x12 Expecting
5 1x16 The Ring
5 1x20 War Zone
5 2x01 Judgement
5 2x13 Happy Anniversary

6 1x03 In The Dark
6 2x16 Epiphany

7 1x08 I Will Remember You
7 1x10 Parting Gifts
7 1x11 Somnambulist
7 1x18 Five By Five
7 1x19 Sanctuary
7 2x05 Dear Boy
7 2x06 Guise Will Be Guise
7 2x12 Blood Money
7 2x17 Disharmony
7 2x18 Dead End

8 1x05 Rm w/a Vu
8 1x17 Eternity
8 1x21 Blind Date
8 2x09 The Trial
8 2x11 Redefinition

9 1x01 City Of
9 1x09 Hero
9 1x22 To Shanshu In LA
9 2x07 Darla

10 2x02 Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been
10 2x10 Reunion
10 2x15 Reprise

[partcynic]

Cyclica:

Another interesting list! I see why Spin The Bottle got the number one spot in enjoyment factor (the humour is mostly top-notch and seeing the teen personalities of the cast is great, especially nasty Cordy and super-lame Wesley); I’m guessing Fredless hits number two because of its focus on a certain smart-and--cute Texan? I see why She is at the bottom as well, it’s not my least fave, but I shudder at the acting of the woman who played Jheira. Anyway, here are my thoughts season-by-season:

S1 and S2, we have an almost reversal going on. With the exceptions of Rm w/a Vu, Disharmony, Are You Now… and Guise Will Be Guise (always great to see those excellent eps high up), my favourite S1/S2 shows (Hero; City Of; To Shanshu In LA, most of the ‘Grey Angel’ and Darla arcs, which are my picks of the entire show) are all towards the bottom. I think I get why though, both for the arc-vs-standalone factor you mentioned in the Buffy thread and the fact that those story arcs are pretty draining and oppressive, so while interesting and character-developing, perhaps not the most enjoyable?

S3, we share two of our worst five eps (Benediction, Tomorrow), and there’s a kind of flow with my preferred eps (Fredless, That Vision Thing) being similar to yours – although I’m intrigued by a couple of placings. For S3, That Old Gang of Mine is your 6th highest ep (and ranked above nearly all of my top 10 or so for the entire show); so what puts it up relatively high? I can’t recall there being a huge amount of good stuff in it, and I shudder at the theme too. And given that you have both Benediction and Tomorrow very low, why do you rate A New World higher?

S4’s our closest match; your least favourites (Deep Down, Release, Inside Out) are similar to mine and several of my preferred eps are your higher ones (Spin The Bottle, Salvage, Apocalypse Nowish). Wasn’t a huge fan of Shiny Happy People or The Magic Bullet, but it was great to see Fred solo (which I’m guessing is why you have those eps quite high?), and Lorne was really entertaining in The House Always Wins, so I can see why that’s up there. Only ep I’m not sure about would be Slouching Towards Bethlehem, which while in your middle area is the ep I think is one of the least enjoyable in the show (since pretty much nothing happens except for a few silly amnesia jokes).

In general, you like S5 much more than I do (and vice versa for S1), but again, I see why each ep’s where it is – except perhaps Why We Fight. So why’s that one higher (above Smile Time and Lineage?)

Let me know what you think of my ratings.

[cyclica]

Season 1 wasn't so bad, the reason many eps come low down may simply be because I liked later episodes more. I loved all the doyle episodes earlier on...well except for Hero. Aside form the whole not-wanting-doyle-to-die factor, the whole ep seemed too depressing, even for angel. But the biggest problem I had with it was the race of half-demons. Doyle I can accept as half demon, he has a human mother and demon father. But an entire race of half demons, that we should feel sorry for, that my (then) favourite character should die trying to rescue? The whole idea sucked. I guess I've never liked the idea of demons being people too.
Its the same with the episode 'she', only more so. Here was this demon murdering innocent humans (and does some kind of mind control thing on angel), and we are supposed to feel sorry for her because she is persecuted by other demons, who themselves have never hurt humans. And the make up was just crap. Up till now all demons have looked monsterous, with horns or green skin or whatever. But these demons look just like people but with a few facial differences, if I was flicking through channels and stopped I might think I was watching star trek.

Season 2 got better after gunn properly became part of the team, wesley was ok but he wasn't as good as doyle, and a new guy was needed. But like you noticed, overall in s2 its the stand alone eps I prefered. Darla, lindsey and kate were all annoying, and the whole 'oh no holland has died, who will replace him?' story might have been better if I cared about the characters, but I basically saw them as bad guys, and didn't care whether one bad guy or the other would be filling some chair, or the fate of some murderous ex-vampire. I still don't know why angel became a jerk.

Season 3 seemed like a big improvement to me. I dunno if they got better writers in or something, but the darla/w&h storyline wasn't so annoying anymore. Even lorne went from being a smarmy know-it-all to a helpful wuss. In That old gang of mine, it was great to see gunn's old friends again (good to know the writers hadn't forgotten about them, they resolved the issue of gunns past and his currant loyalties in one big ep). And the first appearance of conner in 'A new world' was ok at first, but the conner/holtz story got old quickly. Fortunatly it went away quickly too.

Season 4 was kinda bleak, what with angel and no sun. The best thing about shiny happy people/the magic bullet (aside from fred saving the world) was just letting a little sunshine back into the show, theres only so many eps you can stand that take place almost entirely in the hotel. Plus cordy was real annoying by this point, its great that the jasmine story got her out of the way. As for SLB, well you could be right about that, I guess the jokes were all I could remember about it.

Season 5. Easily my favourite season, every episode was great, except for damage (the potential slayer was great, but there was way too much andrew in this ep. On buffy he was great because by then everyone else sucked, but on angel for some reason everyone in the ep took a back seat to him, and didn't even seem to notice that he's a nerd who'se in way over his head). Why don't you like Why We Fight? To me it was a great 'Are you now or have you ever been' style ep, it delt with an interesting situation (what would happen if angel with a soul turned a human into a vamp), it had a return of bad guy spike, and IMHO its great that the show (and characters) didn't get back to the usual mix of comedy so soon after cordy's death. I loved the ending too, "why did he return?", "no reason". Though I can see why you may not like that explanation.

Now if I may ask you... why did you rate reunion and reprise so high? And for a fred fan, why do your top 21 eps not have any fred in them?

[partcynic]

Responses ahoy!

The Fred issue is fairly easy. While I do enjoy her character, most of the eps in S3 onwards had many other flaws to cost them ratings points (characters acting in unbelievable ways, repetitive and unimaginative plots, no humour, poor development). As a result, Fred alone can't suffice to pull those eps up to the level of the first two seasons, where the characters, plots and themes were excellent.

I think we're fairly different in our thoughts on the demons as other races aspect, I've always found it interesting and really important to the shows. At the start of "Buffy" we were shown a black-and-white world where vamps/demons were all soulless monsters, but as soon as S2 started it became increasingly clear that that idea was questionable (Spike and Dru's care for each other, the lackey vamp the Judge burned having a love of reading). The "Angel" series really started to ramp it up, and I always thought the idea of understanding demons as parallel races was a good one. "Hero" among others ("She"; "Judgement", and in a bizarre way "That Old Gang of Mine") uses the metaphor of half-demons as the minority (racial is the obvious one, but thrown in religion, gender or sexual orientation also), and tells us we shouldn't judge simply based upon appearance – rather we must examine the actions of each individual one by one (which is also the theme of S2, as evidenced by "Reprise" and "Epiphany", and is one of the reasons the former gets a 10). That theme is very true to life, and fits in both with "Buffy"’s overarching story of growing up, and "Angel"’s about the scope of moralities. If you can accept characters like Doyle and Lorne, I’m not sure why one or two ‘good’ demon species out of the hundreds we’ve seen poses an issue. The big problem ended up being that the writers kept forgetting their theme and then repeating it, resulting in episodes like "That Old Gang Of Mine" – an offensive show that tries to make a statement about racism/prejudice, but ends up saying that it’s okay to be prejudiced as long as you don’t take pleasure in oppressing the people you don’t like. And I don't think "Hero" is that depressing. It’s certainly sad that Doyle died (a big loss, but necessary given that Glenn Quinn’s personal problems at the time were negatively affecting the show), but that ep is highly emotional and really pulls the viewer into the story and Doyle's character. Tragic, but somewhat uplifting too. However, I agree that "She" took things too far - Jheira needed to understand that it was wrong to blindly protect her own people and harm others. But that’s one weak episode amid a lot of stronger ones on both "Buffy" and "Angel" dealing with the same thing.

S2’s main arc dealt with a lot of those themes on a larger scale. Because of his history and attachment to Darla, Angel tries to place helping her as his number one priority, but everything else gets swallowed up as his obsession grows; not only does she have – and not want – something he’s always wanted (humanity), he sees his own salvation tangled up with hers. And as soon as he gets through to her, she is forcibly taken away from him. The narrow minded focus turns into bitterness and resentment which he tries to deal with by taking out the ‘evil’ of Wolfram and Hart, only to learn that there is no big evil force – just normal human beings. But while evil will always exist, so will good, so his new goal becomes to help each person find their own way. That’s excellent character development for Angel, and pretty much completes his original story. Great stuff. I can see how you found it hard to sympathise with Darla, but bear in mind that when she was brought back, she wasn’t the soulless monster she was when she killed, and she did show remorse for her actions, and even wanted to die ‘naturally’ after experiencing what Angel was willing to do for her. If you can like Anya (who killed hundreds/thousands of people while presumably in possession of a soul, never showed remorse except on one occasion and actually found most of her killings amusing), you can forgive human Darla.

As for my giving "Reunion" a 10, I’d have to watch it once more to be sure, but it’s a very well-written ep – lots of humour, lots of drama and involvement from all of the cast members. Angel gets some of his best scenes of the entire show, each of the characters has plenty of brilliant lines (Dru in particular is great), everyone behaves in a believable manner, and it has probably the best final ten minutes of any show – the whole bomb shelter scene is wonderful, dark, sexy (Lilah, Darla and Dru) and scary, and Angel’s sealing the lawyers in was phenomenal in pushing his character forward (plus, seeing that smarmy Holland get killed was very satisfying). So a great ep – not my favourite, but very close and a key milestone in Angel’s development.

The Connor, Holtz, Cordy-Angel and Jasmine stories pretty much killed S3 and S4 for me, as for everything I like (Fred) there about ten I hate, hence the low marks. S5 was a good step-up, but the damage was already done. Eps were normally solid but I didn’t find any to be spectacular. I agree about Andrew ruining "Damage", I cringe every time he comes on screen. As for "Why We Fight", I generally found it pretty slow and uninvolving, introducing yet another convolution into Angel’s past and some annoying coincidences . The idea of Lawson being the only vampire Angel had sired since gaining a soul was very interesting, but they didn’t really go anywhere with it, and I would have liked it if we had actually learnt ‘Why [Angel] Fight’. You’re right about the structural similarity to "Are You Now…", but that ep had a fully developed plot and theme that told us a lot about Angel’s character and how he’d grown and changed. I can sit and watch ‘Why We Fight’, but it has none of that thematic or emotional quality, so it can only go so high in my ratings.

Right, this post has gotten pretty long, and I think I’ve covered everything. Let me know what you think.

[cyclica]

I still don't understand why you don't like seasons 3, 4 & 5. To me the whole angel show is like a big metaphor for life - he starts out with a small business, makes friends, finds his place in the world, becomes a father and eventually deals with the responsibilities of running a huge corporation. The last 3 seasons were a big part of that. Though I partially agree about the lack of humour, at least in s4, lorne seemed to be the sole provider of humour in that season.

I never liked the idea of demons being a metaphor for races, to me demons were just evil monsters (as established on buffy and, well, every single religion). It took me a long time to like lorne. One of the reasons xander was one of my favourite characters was that he seemed to feel the same way, or perhaps he just felt that way about demons who wanted to date buffy.

Season 2 and angel's 'character development' when he gets in that lift with holland - well I can't see any development at all. If anything, angel has simply 'reset' to his previous self, as a way to keep the show going and keep the character likeable. 'Theres good and bad in everyone', wow big revelation, how dumb must he have been if he needed holland to spell it out for him? He even had time to sleep with darla before it really set in. (And yes I can forgive human darla, but that doesn't mean I liked her).

As for Why we fight, I never found it unsatisfying, and you shouldn't judge an ep by its title . I realise I put AYNOHYEB higher than WWF, but upon reflection I can't help but find fault in it. Angel stumbles onto a hotel (nice set up in judgement), then remembers last time he was there it had a demon. So he gets wes and cordy to spend hours looking into it, never giving them a hint why, until they eventually discover what angel knew all along, and could have told them in five minutes. So they and gunn (who only gets to appear in the last few minutes, and theres no reason why he's there at all ) head down to the hotel and risk their lives to kill a demon, who as far as they knew hadn't posing a threat to anyone in the last 50 years. The only thing that episode taught me was that angel used to be a real bastard back in the 50s, and I for one could have lived without knowing that.

[partcynic]

Well, the only season I really dislike is S3. S4/5 are both okay, though I don't like either as much as the first two. This is really a matter of going over individual episodes, which I'll do at some point in the future.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the racial metaphor.

Obviously, I massively disagree about Angel's character development being a nothing. It's a very important lesson for Angel (and really, everyone on both shows) to learn, but again, if you don't like the race metaphor, I don't think I could convince you to like it more.

As for "Why We Fight", I'm not really judging it on its title. It's a watchable episode, but that's it. And sure, "Are You Now..." has flaws (every ep does), but it has very important stuff for Angel and is excellently filmed, acted and structured. But again, it links into the issues raised by the rest of the S2 arc, so I'm not sure if we'd agree overall.

[cyclica]

Partcynic, I just noticed- you've rated the pylea episodes pretty low. Can I ask why you gave them the lowest ratings in season 2?

[partcynic]

^ I think I might actually have them a point too low there - it's been a while since I watched them, so I'm working from memory. I'll probably end up raising them all to '4' grades when I go back and review the Angel eps.

Anyway, I've got them relatively low (though still better than most of S3 and big chunks of S4) not because they're bad, but because so many other eps are just better. I enjoy watching the Pylea arc and think it's good fun, and I loved the introduction of Fred (who was the best part of the story by far), Numfar's dances, Cordelia in the sexy belly-dancer outfit, and many of Lorne's jokes.

However, these eps really aren't any different from your typical sword and sorcery flick - and I expected a bit more from Angel (and Buffy) in terms of plot, theme and character development. Overall, the story wasn't hugely interesting for me, and the pacing was rather slow (I think they could have easily chopped an episode out and not had any change to the plot - in fact, I can't even remember what happens in each ep). There were lots of other silly things - like everyone in Pylea conveniently speaking English, the rebel gang having no problems with Wesley and Gunn knowing Cordelia (or photographs, for that matter), Wesley and Gunn being able to swordfight better than the guards, the castle's total lack of security etc. And all of the stuff with Gru was really dull. I'm not saying that these are terrible things - but they don't help the arc, either.

So, I found the Pylea stuff to be fun but silly, with a few cute jokes and one great new character. I just prefer all of those higher-marked eps, which are a bit more substantial.

[cyclica]

Hmm. It seems like you and I have different approaches to rating episodes, in that you give boring, average episodes a 3/4 rating. Whereas I give average episodes a 5, and everything below 5 being episodes I don't like.

So looking at my angel list, a 5 would be the episode 'soulless', which is pretty near the bottom because there are so many episodes I like (although I will need to revise that list a little bit later on).

As for the pylea episodes, I understand what you mean about the pacing being slow, and I'm totally with you on not remembering what happend in each episode. The other faults you mentioned didn't bother me, the only problems I had with these episodes were angel acting too goofy in the sunlight (the whole 'I'll never see the sun again' thing was treated so seriously in 'In the dark'), and the fact that there are humans living a demon dimension. I can't accept that fact that humans had always lived/evolved in a demon dimension, I'd instead like to beleive that at some point in the past a few people were sucked into portals, and the rebels were their descendants.

[partcynic]

Oct 13, 2008 14:55:48 GMT -5 cyclica said:

Hmm. It seems like you and I have different approaches to rating episodes, in that you give boring, average episodes a 3/4 rating. Whereas I give average episodes a 5, and everything below 5 being episodes I don't like.

So looking at my angel list, a 5 would be the episode 'soulless', which is pretty near the bottom because there are so many episodes I like (although I will need to revise that list a little bit later on).

I agree that it's more of a difference in the way we use the rating scale - and what the different numbers represent - than a huge difference in opinion. I remember you've called episodes highly flawed and given them 5/6 marks in the past - which on your scale fits as it's the bottom of the 'good' section, while being 'above average' on mine. I still like most of the eps I give less than five marks to - the only eps I really consider bad are the 0s and 1s.

I think it's partly because I have a fairly fixed 'degrees of flawed' approach, instead of a 'good' half and 'bad' half. I can't use Angel for examples at the moment (not familiar enough with the eps), but let's take a Buffy edition like Into The Woods. I agree with you that it's weak, mostly because it's dull and emotionally hollow - but I still like segments of it enough to give it a 3. In addition to that, I consider that there are then shows that are just as boring and hollow, but cause major character or world damage in the process (Wrecked, Hell's Bells, Showtime, Empty Places) - so they get the very lowest marks from me, while Into The Woods escapes with a 'below average'.

[cyclica]

Partcynic, have you had a chance to rewatch seasons 3-5 of angel?

[partcynic]

^ Not yet. However, coincidentally enough, I've been thinking of doing an Angel rewatch to rate and review the eps. Fancy joining me? We could do a certain no. of eps per week depending on how busy we get - it might make a nice new forum thing to do while we wait for the Angel sub-board to get finished. (Personally, I'm a bit burned out on hangman etc, so I wouldn't mind doing something that the forum hasn't done before).

[cyclica]

I'm on board with rating/reviewing the angel eps, anything that'll liven up the board a bit.

When I started watching the buffys from the beginning last year, I watched the angels at the same time, the way you were supposed to watch them on tv (so first the freshman, then city of, then living conditions etc). But when I stopped watching buffy I continued with angel now and again, and today I just got up to damage and you're welcome. I'm sure the older eps are fresh enough in my memory for me to review them though.

[partcynic]

^ That's great. I'm pretty busy over the next couple of days, but I'll aim to start the review thread on Saturday once I've had a chance to watch the first few eps.