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Post by Clare on Sept 26, 2008 10:04:15 GMT -5
5.17 Forever - Episode #095
On the day of Joyce's funeral, Buffy seeks solace from Angel, while Dawn attempts to raise her mother from the grave.
Review (also post a score out of 10) and discuss this episode.
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Post by cyclica on Feb 9, 2009 17:04:31 GMT -5
This ep is from dawn's point of view more than buffy's, buffy herself doesn't appear much (and apparantly this is the only episode of the show where buffy has no fight scenes).
The funeral scenes and discussions of a wake at the start were neccessary, but still kind of a drag. The episode didn't get going until willow lead dawn to the book on resurrection (why would willow do something she knows was wrong?).
Its great to see dawn becoming more of a 'bitty buffy', getting involved in the fighting a demon (although spike did the fighting) and doing spells. The old guy they went to see was great too, he was friendly but still creepy.
The rest of the episode was only ok, except the ending with joyce nearly coming back, and buffy and dawn crying, which was really moving.
I'm giving this episode a high 6. There's not enough going on to give it a higher rating.
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Post by partcynic on Sept 17, 2010 7:54:17 GMT -5
5x17 “Forever”
Episode Rating = 3
After two episodes that batted significantly above the season’s average, it was almost inevitable that we’d get something mediocre, and “Forever” is a bland, generic offering reminding us that great eps are now the exception rather than the norm. Given the amount of love and care that went into making “The Body” a powerful send-off for Joyce, it’s disappointing that the final chapter to her story is so uninvolving, with a by-numbers approach to writing that’s in sad contrast to “The Body”’s experimentation. Although there are admittedly a couple of scenes with the potential to endure, the bulk of “Forever” is forgettable stodge, with far too much emphasis on Dawn; a weak treatment of what could have been a fascinating topic; and a plot that doesn’t really commence until the halfway point. These flaws combine to sink “Forever” low in both my rankings for the season and the show, though it earns a tiny bit of respect for being drab as opposed to unwatchable.
What I Liked about “Forever”:
- The piano theme that plays over the funeral montage was nice, and I liked the contrast between Dawn’s obvious emotional distress and Buffy staring stone-faced at the coffin. The brief Summers house shot (where the camera pans along the corridor, revealing the sisters sat alone in their respective rooms) was also a great symbol of their divide.
- I loved the effect as the camera focused on Buffy standing besides Joyce’s grave, and day suddenly turned to night. It was a pleasant (and fitting) surprise for Angel to reappear, and I liked how Buffy took his hand in silence. Their subsequent conversation under the tree wasn’t spectacularly written, but it effectively expressed Buffy’s concerns, and made her breakdown at the story’s close believable. Plus, it’s simply nice to show the strong bond the characters have, without wading back into the slushy shipper pool.
- Giles listening to “Tales of Brave Ulysses” was a wonderful continuity piece, and spot-on in terms of characterisation.
- Spike’s scene with the flowers is excellent, and his lines about Joyce helped me warm back up to him after his terrible behaviour in “Crush”.
- The climactic end scene was superb, and worth slogging through the rest of the episode for. Sarah Michelle Gellar performed brilliantly, and made me truly feel for Buffy. The combination of dialogue and acting was moving, as was finally seeing Buffy break down and grieve (and to give Dawn credit, her realising the extent of her sister’s pain and comforting her). I also loved the story’s homage to “The Monkey’s Paw”, and the fact that we never saw the reanimated Joyce made her shambling silhouette much creepier.
What I Disliked about “Forever”:
- As a whole, the episode was slow and dull. It went through arbitrary preparations and funeral scenes with no real flair, and the plot was thin and poorly thought-out. It also didn’t help that there was tons of padding, from major stuff like half of the episode featuring characters doing nothing, to the gratuitous Anya/Xander scene and the pointlessly extended Ghora fight.
- I dislike the sudden trashing of Hank Summers. I don’t buy that the decent man we saw back in “Nightmares” and “When She Was Bad” would totally abandon his children, nor that he would fail to help them after his ex-wife died. Even if he and Joyce were on frosty terms prior to her passing, the news of the death of a woman he once loved deeply should still have been upsetting enough to prompt a visit (or at minimum a card/phone call) – at least for Buffy and Dawn’s sakes.
- This episode has lots of emphasis on Dawn, yet doesn’t really explore her character or motivations. After the first couple of scenes pointed out the emotional gulf that had developed between she and Buffy (which the final scene closed), I was hoping for some kind of study of her loneliness and how she felt about a) Joyce’s death and b) her personal place in the world, especially after the events of “Blood Ties” – but nothing substantial happened. It’s frustrating considering that the writers could do a lot with Dawn, but instead they insist on playing her as a one-dimensional, bratty child who doesn’t invoke sympathy.
- I was really disappointed by the weak treatment of resurrection. I’ve always been intrigued by the notion of being able to bring people back from the dead, and a show like “Buffy” would provide the perfect opportunity for exploring its intricacies and ethics. However, what we ended up getting was a simplistic repetition of tired ‘it’s wrong, and messes with the natural order’ memes, instead of any insight into why it would be wrong. Even a brief discussion of some basic problems from Tara would have helped provide the story with more substance, but it unfortunately settled for less.
- The plot structure is surprisingly weak. If we consider the main narrative to be the resurrection spell, then it doesn’t really get going until act three, which is rather late. As it stands, the story goes that Willow leads Dawn to a book mentioning resurrection spells and texts; Dawn uses this info to steal such a text from the Magic Box; and she goes to perform the magic, only for Spike to somehow know which book she’s gotten, and help her get its remaining ingredient via a visit to Doc (why would Dawn even bother trying the spell if she didn’t know its exact requirements?) It feels like a good eight minutes of this episode (most of act two) is wasted time, and it’s hard to find Dawn’s Magic Box theft sequence tense or exciting when you know it’s all for nothing.
- It’s good that the Key arc is now moving into its home stretch, but the scenes with Ben/Jinx and then Glory felt abrupt. Considering that those characters had nothing to do with this episode’s story, it was weird to suddenly see them, and Ben’s slip-up about the Key’s innocence struck me as contrived.
- While we don’t know if Ben’s aware of the specifics of Glory’s plan, he does know that if she gets the Key, it’s going to be very bad for everyone. With this in mind, why on earth didn’t he make sure that Jinx was dead/stab him a few more times? Yes, he could have been seen by someone and gotten into trouble, but what’s that compared to letting a hellgod receive information that could lead to the universe being destroyed?
- Clare Kramer’s acting has gotten poor again, and her screams and wails when she’s cursing Ben are ear-piercingly bad (though she’s funny when she tells her mooks to clean Jinx up so she can hear the story again “without any of that annoying moaning”).
- The demon costuming for the Ghora appears clumsy and unwieldy, and it’s impossible to believe as a real monster. Knowing how bad it looks, it might have been advisable to spend less time on the fight/egg gathering. This would have also avoided exposing the viewer to James Marsters’ bizarre pronunciation of ‘bastard’ as ‘basset’ – something that yanks me out of the scene every time I see it.
- What exactly happened to Buffy after her chat with Angel? Her whereabouts are unknown for an entire day.
- Given that Tara is supposed to be emotionally mature/perceptive, it’s bizarre that she doesn’t see through Willow’s obvious facade when they’re discussing the missing book. I get that the most important thing at that moment would have been warning Buffy about the resurrection spell, but Willow’s role in helping Dawn shouldn’t have been ignored.
Do I like this episode more or less than the last time I watched it?
Less, as its problems appeared more glaring on this viewing. I don’t think I’ve ever been aware of just how awkwardly structured this episode is, and having the interesting, complex and well-acted Buffy character swapped out for a shrieking teen stereotype makes the aimlessness even harder to endure. It’s almost as though that excellent closing scene was written first, and then writer Marti Noxon suddenly realised that she had another 35 minutes to fill, consequently penning any old nonsense to fill the gap. Still, a top-notch scene is a top-notch scene, and the strength and emotional power of Sarah Michelle Gellar’s performance prevents me from putting “Forever” in the same band as “Blood Ties” and “Ted”. As such, I’m keeping my old grade of a low three out of ten - albeit a reluctantly-given one.
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Post by cyclica on Jun 18, 2011 15:49:39 GMT -5
Given the amount of love and care that went into making “The Body” a powerful send-off for Joyce, it’s disappointing that the final chapter to her story is so uninvolving, with a by-numbers approach to writing that’s in sad contrast to “The Body”’s experimentation. You're supposed to be reviewing 'forever', not 'bring on the night'.  It was a pleasant (and fitting) surprise for Angel to reappear, and I liked how Buffy took his hand in silence. Their subsequent conversation under the tree wasn’t spectacularly written, but it effectively expressed Buffy’s concerns, and made her breakdown at the story’s close believable. Plus, it’s simply nice to show the strong bond the characters have, without wading back into the slushy shipper pool. I too liked that angel and buffy still had a kind of bond, though I didn't like how angel here seemed too much like his old 'buffy self', and not the person he'd become on his own show (especially since at this point he'd only just had his epiphany and was now dealing with harmony). I would have liked to have seen more of his current personallity show through. - Giles listening to “Tales of Brave Ulysses” was a wonderful continuity piece, and spot-on in terms of characterisation. I liked that too, though I missed the 'band candy' reference the first few times I watched it. ...the fact that we never saw the reanimated Joyce made her shambling silhouette much creepier. Agreed. I'm glad her appearence was left to our imagination. If she'd have looked the way zombies tend to look in the buffyverse she wouldn't have been as creepy. - I dislike the sudden trashing of Hank Summers. I don’t buy that the decent man we saw back in “Nightmares” and “When She Was Bad” would totally abandon his children, nor that he would fail to help them after his ex-wife died. Even if he and Joyce were on frosty terms prior to her passing, the news of the death of a woman he once loved deeply should still have been upsetting enough to prompt a visit (or at minimum a card/phone call) – at least for Buffy and Dawn’s sakes. Agreed. - This episode has lots of emphasis on Dawn, yet doesn’t really explore her character or motivations. After the first couple of scenes pointed out the emotional gulf that had developed between she and Buffy (which the final scene closed), I was hoping for some kind of study of her loneliness and how she felt about a) Joyce’s death and b) her personal place in the world, especially after the events of “Blood Ties” – but nothing substantial happened. It’s frustrating considering that the writers could do a lot with Dawn, but instead they insist on playing her as a one-dimensional, bratty child who doesn’t invoke sympathy. I didn't have a big problem with what we got, but yeah I suppose it was a missed opportunity there. Though we did get to see her in an action-role, showing her becoming, as spike put it, a 'bitty buffy'. Not that she ever became much of a fighter, but episodes like this and 'lessons' were fine on first watching, giving hope that she'd become a stronger person. - I was really disappointed by the weak treatment of resurrection. I’ve always been intrigued by the notion of being able to bring people back from the dead, and a show like “Buffy” would provide the perfect opportunity for exploring its intricacies and ethics. However, what we ended up getting was a simplistic repetition of tired ‘it’s wrong, and messes with the natural order’ memes, instead of any insight into why it would be wrong. Even a brief discussion of some basic problems from Tara would have helped provide the story with more substance, but it unfortunately settled for less. Again, I didn't have a problem with what we got, but it's another missed opportunity. I wonder why tara would have had so much insight into reanimating the dead. Did she have a bad experience of her own? - While we don’t know if Ben’s aware of the specifics of Glory’s plan, he does know that if she gets the Key, it’s going to be very bad for everyone. With this in mind, why on earth didn’t he make sure that Jinx was dead/stab him a few more times? Yes, he could have been seen by someone and gotten into trouble, but what’s that compared to letting a hellgod receive information that could lead to the universe being destroyed? Knowing that ben and glory are the same person, it's amusing in a way to think that after jynx was stabbed, he went straight to the person who stabbed him to tell her what happened. I can just imagine ben stabbing jynx, going back to whatever he was doing, then turning into glory and racing back to her home fast enough to get there before jynx arrives. - What exactly happened to Buffy after her chat with Angel? Her whereabouts are unknown for an entire day. Yeah that was pretty weird. Just what does buffy do all day anyway? It seems like every time we see her she's dealing with the current situation, researching or fighting an enemy, or something like that. - Given that Tara is supposed to be emotionally mature/perceptive, it’s bizarre that she doesn’t see through Willow’s obvious facade when they’re discussing the missing book. I get that the most important thing at that moment would have been warning Buffy about the resurrection spell, but Willow’s role in helping Dawn shouldn’t have been ignored. Agreed. ......... I'm sticking with my 6. This ep has flaws and is dull at times, but I still consider it above average. I really liked the character 'doc' (whom I'm surprised you barely mentioned), and dawn and spike were entertaining together. And having an episode so devoid of buffy herself was weird but also fascinating in a way. |
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Post by partcynic on Jun 23, 2011 15:48:06 GMT -5
Interesting - I didn't know that. Agreed on all counts. I'm guessing that Willow simply thought she was helping sate Dawn's curiosity by showing her a book that contained stuff on the history of resurrection. I don't think she realised or knew that said book contained reference to specific rituals, though - she seemed genuinely shocked when Tara stated so later on. I can't say I found it that interesting. 'Dawn doing stuff like Buffy' could be cute in the right context, but she's a less watchable and less developed version of a superior character, and Michelle Trachtenberg can't handle emotional material as well as SMG. Yes - the ending was excellent. It just about makes the rest of the ep worth seeing. Lol! Though that specific statement about Joyce easily applies to both episodes. I'd wondered about that too. At one point, my personal 'give Tara development the show won't' head-canon was that after her mother died, Tara tried to bring her back. I think it failed, but ended up teaching her to hold magic in reverence, as opposed to treating it like a toy. I didn't find there to be much about him to mention, to be honest - like most of this ep, he was just okay. I did like that he was brought back in the final two episodes, but it was more for the continuity than any intrinsic properties of the character. |
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Post by cyclica on Jun 27, 2011 16:42:27 GMT -5
Interesting - I didn't know that. I meant to say the only episode where SMG has no fight scenes. Buffy didn't do a whole lot of fighting in 'bargaining part 1' either. Agreed on all counts. I'm guessing that Willow simply thought she was helping sate Dawn's curiosity by showing her a book that contained stuff on the history of resurrection. I don't think she realised or knew that said book contained reference to specific rituals, though - she seemed genuinely shocked when Tara stated so later on. Willow didn't hand dawn the book, she left it stuck out for her to find. Perhaps so that tara wouldn't find out, and so if something went wrong with the spell it couldn't be traced back to willow? I'm sure willow knew she was doing something wrong there. And anyway, she must know what's written inside her own books. As for her surprise later on, I always assumed she was faking, even if it doesn't look that way. I'd wondered about that too. At one point, my personal 'give Tara development the show won't' head-canon was that after her mother died, Tara tried to bring her back. I think it failed, but ended up teaching her to hold magic in reverence, as opposed to treating it like a toy. That sounds likely. |
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