I've rated every ep - what do you think?

[partcynic]

Yay! I love it being able to see what other people think about the show on an ep-by-ep basis, it makes discussing things much easier. That must have taken quite some time to do everything in order, even mine are more vague groupings. So, good work!

As could be expected, I agree and disagree about certain stuff, but I definitely can understand how you’ve ordered them. Great to see all of those horrid S7 episodes at the bottom. I’d probably push the stupid-but-fun Dirty Girls and First Date above the character destroying Lies My Parents Told Me or Empty Places, but that’s a very minor point and I like seeing horrors like Bring On The Night, Beneath You, Touched and Showtime rotting away down there. Your 2 highest S7 eps (Storyteller, Same Time Same Place) are also my two faves, always nice to see those underappreciated and funny eps high up, and I can see why Him, Selfless and Conversations… make up the rest of your top 5 S7 eps, even though I’m not overly keen on the latter two. I also agree with the low placings for S6, three of your five bottom S6 eps (Smashed, Wrecked, All The Way) are in my bottom five, and although I don’t like Life Serial (your top S6 ep) it does have some quite enjoyable moments. Little surprised to see Once More With Feeling relatively low – I guess the ep has some weak gimmicky parts, but I’m intrigued by it being below Bad Eggs or Some Assembly Required. So what made that episode weaker (or the others better?) Likewise, although you have Older and Far Away relatively low (mid-range), I’d push it way lower as Dawn’s shrieking really turns my stomach – in fact, it’s one of the few episodes I can’t sit through, and could happily never see it again. So what puts it above Prophecy Girl, Innocence and Graduation Day?

S5, we’re generally close in order – with the big exception of Spiral (2nd best overall? I’d like to hear your take on it), your favourites are similar to mine (I Was Made To Love You, The Body, The Gift, Intervention, Buffy Vs Dracula). I’m not as keen on Triangle as you, but I’ll concede that’s it’s a funny ep and Anya is always a good thing. S4 I have almost no problems with, I see why each ep is where it is, although you gravitate more towards the funnier eps (Living Condtions, Pangs, Superstar and Something Blue) while I prefer the dramatic ones (New Moon Rising, the Faith eps, Primeval) – although you have all of S4 fairly high up, so it’s no problem. Happy to see Hush and Restless up there, both are stunning eps and I can certainly see why the latter bagged the number one spot. Good choice!

We differ a bit more on the high school years. I get the impression I like S1 much more overall than you do, although again I see why each ep is where it is (although I would have Prophecy Girl, The Pack and Angel higher). S3 I agree with about half your placings (Earshot, Doppelgangland, Band Candy and The Wish being high; Consequences and Bad Girls being lower), although I liked Graduation Day, Anne, Amends and The Prom a lot more than Gingerbread, Revelations or Faith, Hope and Trick. They’re all good eps, though, so it’s pretty minor.

S2 is the biggie in terms of difference, I like Some Assembly Required, Bad Eggs and Phases quite a bit, but they feel a tad high, especially when you have the bulk of the Angelus arc (Innocence, Passion, I Only Have Eyes For You, Becoming 1 and 2) so relatively low – when those five are among my very favourite episodes. So what keeps them lower than The Weight of the World and Real Me?

Hope that isn’t too many questions!

[cyclica]

You're right about me preferring the funnier eps, I can't help that, its who I am. I've always preferred 'stand alone' episodes to the ones that are entirely part of the overall arc (eg many of the angelus/faith eps), probably because the stand alone eps are more 'instant satisfaction', you get the resolution to the story at the end, whereas you can't really enjoy an overall arc ep like 'enemies' if you watch it by itself, you have to watch a few eps in a row, and I don't always have time for that. Also the arc episodes tend to have a slower pacing.

There are no season 1 episodes that really stood out for me as being good or bad. Maybe because its been so long since I saw them for the first time, the shock of 'angel is a vampire?' or 'the puppet is a good guy?' has worn off. The angelus arc in s2 has always seemed kinda bleak to me (the dank factory, the emotions involved, well more so than any other big bad), as well written as it is, its put me off watching somewhat. S3 was better (I'm a big faith fan) but theres still a few eps that get bogged down with the ongoing story. Season 4, well you've probably noticed, its my favourite season. 'Restless' wasn't a hard choice for the number one spot.

I love spiral. I don't know why. Maybe because its of the road trip scene (I wouldn't normally judge a whole ep by one great scene, but this one scene lasted almost half the episode), or maybe because its the ensembleness of it, the whole gang forced to work together, even spike. As for triangle, maybe I ranked it higher because it came as such a relief after the two worst eps in s5.

I'm not a big fan of season 6, but I did like the nerds, and 'life serial' was a great nerd episode, it also had an almost unique structure to the ep, what with the main characters all taking turns to appear. I know a few people seem to regard OMWF as their favourite, and I can see why. But it was a little cheesy for me, and besides I've never been a big fan of musicals. Fun as the songs were, they did kinda pad out the story; if every character just said how they felt instead of singing it, I'm sure the ep would have been only half as long. And as for dawn and her whining, I dunno, I guess it never bothered me. Everytime she started screaming (in s5 & s6) it never lasted long, and there was almost always a good reason for it. Dawn is the outsider amongst a group of outsiders, her life sucks and theres no one she can talk to about it, and I love the realism in that she makes mistakes (stealing, making zombie joyce etc). By s7 she had grown as a person, she was just about the only character who was doing any growing in the later years (willow, xander and anya seemed to be taking a few steps back). Speaking of s7, I'm glad you hated it too. I liked selfless mostly because anya had stopped being a jerk (and a demon) and had gone back to being one of the good guys. And CWDP had nerds in, plus the return of joyce, sort of.

[partcynic]

I agree for the most part about the standalone eps, I think there's quite a big 'arc mentality' among Buffy fans whereby a lot of really good standalones get viewed as 'filler' and get dismissed just because they're not part of the arc (I Was Made To Love You comes to mind here, it's my third favourite ep of S5 and you're the first person I know who also rates it highly - we have good taste . With the exception of S2, I think the arc eps have always been the weaker ones; S3's was good but ask most people what the best eps are and you'll hear Band Candy, Lover's Walk, The Wish, Doppelgangland, Earshot and The Prom (that one from the B/A fans) - all of which have little to do with the Faith/Mayor story. And many of the weaker S3 eps (Revelations, Bad Girls, Consequences) are arc eps. S4 got a really bad rap at the time because of the Initiative, but again those standalones are among the best of the show (Hush, Restless) and the character development is spot on (Who Are You, New Moon Rising, Primeval). Same with S5 where I always thought the Glory arc was massively overrated (mostly due it focusing so much on Dawn). S6 and S7 were practically all arc all the time, and pretty much changed from plotted stories to soap opera. You're right about getting more satisfaction from the standalones, in a way it's much more of a challenge to tell a funny/dramatic and coherent story in the space of one ep than it is to span a larger one out over 5 or 6.

I think enjoying S1 is mostly about a more general feeling for the writing - throughout the year, it's really solid, and while some of the monsters are a little goofy (She-Mantis and robot Moloch come to mind), the characterisation and humour level is top-notch (during this period, Joss was doing extensive rewrites on every single ep, which probably explains their quality - after all, he created these characters and knows them better than anyone else). The metaphors are also really tight, and the examination of teen life clever and accurate. And I have to admit that despite having seen it thirty-odd times, that 'resignation' scene in Prophecy Girl still floors me. Emotional without being over-the-top, and the first time they showed that being the Slayer would have massive downsides. I wish that they could have kept reaching that huge emotional territory in later years.

Triangle is interesting, it is a welcome ray of light after the horrible forced-ness of Into The Woods, but as much as I like Olaf and Anya's lines, the main theme does little for me. Willow and Anya have plenty of reasons to dislike each other apart from their relationships with Xander (Willow's patronising and treats Anya like a five-year-old; Anya can be really thoughtless and blurts out whatever she's thinking, just like Cordelia - who Willow also hated). So the comedy is fun, but the main plot just doesn't do anything (unlike, say, I Was Made To Love You). Likewise, I can take Spiral as goofy fun and the road-trip is quite intense, but those Knights just go beyond believability. I can't believe that they walk around in full armour (which can't protect them from Glory or even Buffy, nor stop a bullet for that matter) without anyone noticing, nor that they'd choose horses (short ground-cover distance, limited maximum speed, risk of the horses rearing and throwing their riders) over far more useful cars, nor that they'd use swords over guns. I get that the writers wanted a cool old-time-y group for Buffy to fight against, but they went waaayyyy too far and made it impossible to believe.

You're right that OMWF is a little cheesy, I still find it the best ep of S6, but even that's considering a few silly flaws. Several of the songs are pure filler, and I never understood why Xander didn't come clean about the spell when he heard that people were dying. As for Dawn, I suppose her whining was justified sometimes, but in S6 it gets really silly. Like in Dead Things, when she bitches at Buffy for not being around (when she knows that they're broke and Buffy must work to keep a roof over their heads), and then yells at Buffy when Buffy thinks she's killed Katrina. You'd think that the subject of a dead person would distract her from herself for a few seconds. Or in Gone, when she finds out Buffy's invisble and responds not by worrying what's happened to her, but by screeching and running off (and that comment about getting into another car accident was just repugnant). But Older and Far Away is the pure nadir moment - the gang is trapped inside a house with a monster and will quickly run out of food, starve and die, and she's still stropping that no one wants to spend time with her. It would help if she realised that she's just got a horrid personality, so it's no surprise no one wants to hang out. But you're right that she was much better in S7. But better than 'horrid' is only a slight improvement. Still, I guess she had one up on the other characters, who just got worse and worse. Blech. Right, I'm back off to my fantasy world where S6 and S7 never happened.

[cyclica]

Just out of curiosity, what is your all time best/worst ep?

[partcynic]

Best would probably be Hush, with Passion and Becoming 2 close behind.

Worst would be Empty Places, with Wrecked and Lies My Parents Told Me runners up.

[partcynic]

Another six months, a few more ratings revisions. Having gone back and watched the entire series from start to finish, I shunted quite a few eps from S1-5 up a little; some have grown on me while others I like the same or dislike more. Instead of reposting the list and eating up bandwidth, I just modified the very first post in this thread with the up-to-date ratings, and included the season averages. Once again, any discussion is cool, and I'd love to see more people posting their lists.

[cyclica]

Wow you've bumped school hard up from a 5 to an 8. What gives?

[partcynic]

Ah, yep, School Hard was my biggest shift in any episode. Basically, the first last few times I saw it, I had all of the (awful) S7 character 'development' for Spike fresh in my mind, so the whole tense factor and 'hardcoriness' that he was supposed to have just didn't come through. When I watched it again, I forced myself to ignore all of that and watch like I was seeing it for the first time - and I really, really enjoyed it. All of Spike's lines were great; Spike/Drusilla rules, toasting the Anointed was a great ending; all of the emotional stuff with Buffy/Joyce worked, there was lots of good humour, and the plots worked excellently. So I decided to raise it, since although I still love the '5' rated episodes, 'School Hard' had far too many great things to stay in that place. An 8 better reflects the quality; I'll probably shift Something Blue up at some point for the same reason; if I forget the horrible Spuffy from later on, I think I might enjoy the main joke of the episode more.

[partcynic]

Have now made a couple of little edits to my list. 'Him' climbed up a point while CWDP dropped one, and I got over my Spuffy dislike to raise 'Something Blue' up to a high, healthy six. That also pushes the S4 average up to nearly 6/10 - still not as high as S1-3, but excellent nonetheless and above all other TV.

[cyclica]

Ok I've updated my buffy and angel lists, and just to make things a little more interesting, I've decided to combine them both. I've added the numbers to make the list a little easier to read, but they're still in order from my most to least favourite. Here are all the buffy/angel episodes, with buffy eps in bold:

10-
Restless
Spin the bottle
Fredless
Harm's way
Birthday

9-
Spiral
Time bomb
Not fade away
Storyteller
Pangs
Life of the party
I was made to love you
Orpheus
You're welcome
The zeppo
Living conditions
The replacement
Rm w/a vu
Disharmony


8-
Same time, same place
Hush
Triangle
School hard
Band candy
Fear, itself
The house always wins
Earshot
Carpe noctum
No place like home
The girl in question
Provider
Him
A new man
The body
Doppelgangland
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered
Salvage
Over the rainbow
Through the looking glass
There's no place like plrtz glrb
Superstar
The gift
Why we fight
Faith, hope and trick

7-
The magic bullet
Selfless
Life serial
Are you now or have you ever been?
The freshman
Something blue
Guise will be guise
Once more with feeling
Shiny happy people
The ring
Apocalypse nowish
Conversations with dead people
Sense and sensitivity
That vision thing
Phases
Intervention
Some assembly required
The shroud of rahmon
That old gang of mine
Lovers walk
Smile time
Revelations
Puppet show
The wish
Family
Lineage
Homecoming
Fool for love
Conviction
Real me
The cautionary tale of numero cinco
Bad eggs
Who are you?
In the dark
Where the wild things are

6-
Checkpoint
I fall to pieces
Shells
Underneath
Never kill a boy on the first date
The harsh light of day
Real me
Unleashed
Welcome to the hellmouth
The I in team
Dead things
Buffy vs Dracula
Belonging
Helpless
Judgement
Lonely hearts
The weight of the world
Calvary
The thin dead line
Power play
Habeas corpses
Tabula rasa
Chosen
Entropy
Happy anniversary
Two to go
Just rewards
Supersymmetry
Out of sight out of mind
Halloween
City of
Grave
Beer bad
Dead mans party
The price
End of days
Players
Becoming 1 & 2
Gingerbread
Sacrifice
Waiting in the wings
Killed by death
Heartthrob
Origin
Forever
Blind date
Witch
Slouching towards bethlehem
The bachelor party
Ted
Offspring

5-
Couplet
Untouched
Innocence
Parting gifts
Graduation day 1 & 2
This year's girl
A new world
Soul purpose
Dad
War zone
Older and further away
Home
Teachers pet
Beauty and the beasts
The yoko factor
Redefenition
Whats my line 1 & 2
Nightmares
I only have eyes for you
Double or nothing
Expecting
Hellbound
Bargaining 1
Wild at heart
Sleeptight
Epithany
First impressions
I robot you jane
Destiny
Prophecy girl
Tough love
The trial
The pack
Go fish
Flooded
The prom
New moon rising
The initiative
Lullaby

4-
Blood money
Hells bells
I've got you under my skin
Surprise
Primeval
Never leave me
Awakening
Somnambulist
Long day's journey
Billy
The harvest
Loyalty
A hole in the world
Shadow
Doomed
To shanshu in la
Blood ties
Bad girls
Five by five
Passions
Anne
Reunion
Villains
Goodbye iowa
Eternity
Quickening
Reptile boy
Normal again
Reprise
Help
Choices
Soulless
The prodigal
Angel
Benediction
Amends
Peace out
Gone
Crush
Inca mummy girl
Beneath you

3-
When she was bad
Doublemeat palace
Lessons
Dead end
Bargaining 2
Tomorrow
Out of my mind
Forgiving
Inside out
Ground state
Seeing red
Darla
I will always remember you
Release
Listening to fear
Damage
The dark age
Hero
Sanctuary

2-
Enemies
Potential
First date
All the way
Consequences
Sleeper
Lies my parents told me
Wrecked
Empty places
Lie to me
Dirty girls
Dear boy
Into the woods
Deep down
Bring on the night

1-
Get it done
Smashed
After life
As you were
The killer in me
Touched

0-
Showtime
She

[partcynic]

Wow, that's a lot to take in! It's interesting to see that "She" takes your vote as worst of the worst, I still don't know what my favourite and least favourite of Buffy and Angel combined would be. Have you moved around any of your Buffy ratings from last time? I saw that you gave Potential and First Date 4s in your S7 reviews, but they're lower than Empty Places (which you gave a 3 to) on this list. One last question would be what your divide point is for the good/enjoyable and bad/not enjoyable episodes? I find I start wanting to watch eps multiple times at around the 4/10 mark, but only the 0s and 1s are poor to me. I know Showtime and TKIM are definitely 'bad' eps for you, but I was wondering whether it's a more continuous thing.

[cyclica]

Hi partcynic, I just made a few last minute changes to the list. As you can see some of the ratings for the season 7 eps don't exactly match up to what I put in the reviews, when I was doing the reviews I found myself comparing the eps to other season 7 eps, whereas if I look at all the buffy/angel episodes as a whole, their value goes down a little. Just looking at the list of ep titles reminded me of how many great episodes of both shows there are.

As for my divide point, well right now I would have to say it's between 'ground state' and 'seeing red', every episode from that point onwards I wouldn't watch unless its part of an arc or if i'm watching a whole season.

[partcynic]

Ah, that edit is very good - it makes it much easier to see where you stand on all of the eps.

Oh, and you should finish off your S7 reviews if you get the chance. Those last couple of eps may suck, but think of the fun of criticising them! ;D

[cyclica]

Hehe I know! Maybe soon.

I hope you're not too upset that I gave your favourite ep 'passion' a 4.

[cyclica]

Where is your good/bad point then, mr cynic?