Glory

[jennf10]

Buffy never truly defeated Glory. Glory was killed by Giles in her "Ben" mode. Does that make Glory more powerful than our Buffy? Thoughts?

[jennf10]

Jun 18, 2005 11:53:23 GMT -5 Clare said:

I actually do think that Glory was stronger than Buffy, I mean, she was a God!

I liked Ben but I think he had a bit of a "nasty" side to him! Maybe it was being linked to Glory that made him that way...

So did Glory become part of Ben when she came to this world or was it always like that? This confuses me.

I think Ben was created for a vehicle for Glory. When she was banished from her world, the monks that followed her created Ben in order to give Glory a form in this world. She was going to return to her natural form when she returned to her world.

[leoshot]

Vehicle is a good term to use for him. I loved Glory though. The whole God thing and then beign banished from her own world was pretty cool. I loved her little monks though. They were like her minions. Glory really kicked Buffy's butt.

[jennf10]

Yup. Although says something about Willow's power, that she could make a dent into Glory's psyche.

[cyclica]

Ben was killed, but glory wasnt...she was supposed to return in season 7 but the actress couldnt make it, so the story was dropped. I imagine glory is trapped in limbo somewhere...

[jennf10]

So, then, was Glory forever trapped inside Ben? I had no idea she was coming back. She was great with her few lines in "Lessons" for season 7.

[cyclica]

Jul 23, 2005 13:54:49 GMT -5 Clare said:

I thought the First could only appear as someone or something that had died - does that mean that Glory had died, as the First appeared as her in the 1st episode of season 7? Or is it because her "vehicle" (Ben) had died?
Can anyone explain this?

Oh you're right, I forgot about that! Yes glory must have died.

Still, i'm sure they would have found a way to bring her back in s7.

[Gloryboy]

jennf10 said:

Buffy never truly defeated Glory. Glory was killed by Giles in her "Ben" mode. Does that make Glory more powerful than our Buffy? Thoughts?

But the reason Glory retreated back into Ben was because she was beaten, or at least that's how I took it. She was helpless and couldn't stop Buffy from beating on her.

But Buffy didn't exactly beat Glory one against one.
When we first saw Glory, she was invulnerable. I mean, even a fall from the edge of the atmosphere at terminal velocity as a flaming meteor (probably because her clothes were burning off) didn't do anything but annoy her. Plus she was so strong that she could stomp her foot and bring a building down. She knocked Buffy senseless with a backhand. When I saw that, the first thing that crossed my mind was, what will they do to weaken her before the final fight so Buffy can beat her?

First, the fact that the time for the ritual was getting so close was badly weakening Glory. She was changing back and forth from Glory to Ben constantly. Then they hit her with the Dagon Sphere which was described as her kryptonite, weakening her even more, maybe making her not as strong and maybe not as invulnerable. Not sure of the exact sequence here but I think she then fought and defeated the Buffybot. Then Willow somehow took away the energy Glory had drained from Tara and maybe from others as well. That totally disoriented her. Then, after all that, she had to fight Buffy, who was using "the weapon of a god" (how Olaf's hammer suddenly became the weapon of a god is something never explained). Amazingly, Glory was still managing to comeback and was winning until Xander hit her with a wreckingball. That finally hurt her so badly that Buffy, with help from the hammer, beat her.

I think Glory was way more powerful. No way Buffy could have beaten her by herself.

[Gloryboy]

I actually do think that Glory was stronger than Buffy, I mean, she was a God!

I liked Ben but I think he had a bit of a "nasty" side to him! Maybe it was being linked to Glory that made him that way...

So did Glory become part of Ben when she came to this world or was it always like that? This confuses me.

I liken it to how Thor was done in the comic books. Don Blake was a 'construct' created by Odin in which to hold Thor's soul in a mortal body so he could learn humility. Blake even had false memories of a childhood.

I think that not even the other two hellgods were powerful enough to kill Glory. But they managed to banish her to Earth and trap her in a mortal body that they constructed to hold her.

I always wondered why the other hellgods didn't just follow her to Earth and kill her in that mortal body of Ben. Maybe because they couldn't exist here either unless they made mortal bodies for themselves and became vulnerable. But it seems they thought she would just live out a normal lifespan as a mortal man and die, at least that was how I looked at it. They knew she was powerful but even they never thought she was so powerful that within 20 or so years, she'd be able to become herself (or at least a human form having a lot of her powers).

Anyway, I think she became Ben when she came to this world.

[Gloryboy]

I thought the First could only appear as someone or something that had died - does that mean that Glory had died, as the First appeared as her in the 1st episode of season 7? Or is it because her "vehicle" (Ben) had died?
Can anyone explain this?

I wondered about that too. Could a god truly die? But as the First became Glory in season 7, I guess she died. I wondered the same think about Jasmine on "Angel", that a being of that magnitude could truly die. I would think there would be at least a part of what she was that couldn't be contained in a body and couldn't die.

[cyclica]

Jasmine wasn't a god she was one of the powers-that-be, there is nothing to indicate that she couldn't die.

I think the whole the-first-becoming-every-past-bad thing was a bit forced. I mean it was great visually for the audience, but it doesn't make total sense, why would the first appear as all those people at all? I think glory was never supposed to be dead until they wrote 'lessons', before that ben died in such a way as to leave the door open for her to return.

[Gloryboy]

cyclica said:

Jasmine wasn't a god she was one of the powers-that-be, there is nothing to indicate that she couldn't die.

I think the whole the-first-becoming-every-past-bad thing was a bit forced. I mean it was great visually for the audience, but it doesn't make total sense, why would the first appear as all those people at all? I think glory was never supposed to be dead until they wrote 'lessons', before that ben died in such a way as to leave the door open for her to return.

I thought the Powers That Be were suppsoed to be the oldest beings in the universe, above everything else. The problem is we know that there were 'elder demons' or 'old ones' that left the Earth but one merged with a human and created vampires. I guess that all the demons on Earth are really demon-human hybrids, offspring of the old ones whether they believe that or not. But we don't really know what the Powers That Be are and where they fit in and we don't know where the gods fit into this either.

I agree that the whole idea of The First appearing as lots of different people was a bit forced to allow guest appearances by previous Big Bads. But Glory could still exist. She could be floating around in her true form somewhere. All that matters is that she died. She didn't have to stay dead. Buffy is alive. But she was dead though only for seconds. That's all it takes for the First to look like her.

[partcynic]

cyclica said:

Jasmine wasn't a god she was one of the powers-that-be, there is nothing to indicate that she couldn't die.

I think the whole the-first-becoming-every-past-bad thing was a bit forced. I mean it was great visually for the audience, but it doesn't make total sense, why would the first appear as all those people at all? I think glory was never supposed to be dead until they wrote 'lessons', before that ben died in such a way as to leave the door open for her to return.

Kind of a bit lame that a fist through the face killed a being 'forged in the inferno of creation' though, isn't it? Classic 'we've trapped ourselves in a corner by making the villain too strong and must fudge a way to have her destroyed' writing.

Totally agree about Lessons. It was fun to see the old big bads again, but it makes no sense for the First to appear as them to Spike - especially as the Mayor, whom he never even met.

About Glory, I always assumed that she died when Ben did. She served her purpose in the story arc, so I can't see why the writers would have her come back later on. Or maybe I'm just grateful not to have to watch Clare Kramer's OTT acting outside of S5. ;D

[jennf10]

I thought the Mayor made reference to Spike in "Lover's Walk" during Season 3. He called Spike a mess that he was glad to get rid of. I cannot think, though, how Spike would have met The Master, unless he had met him prior to coming to Sunnydale.

[cyclica]

I agree about the anti-climax that was jasmine's death. Suddenly we are expected to beleive that a punch from her father has far more power than from someone not related. But jasmine was on earth as a mortal, and as such is able to be killed.

Spike never met the mayor but the mayor knew of him, probably through sources and surveillance. And it is coneivable that everyone in town, including spike, knew what the mayor looked like, after all he was a 'local celebrity'. And someone in the gang could have told him all about the mayor's past at some point before lessons. Spike must have known about the master, he was part of the spike-dru-angellus-darla gang that the master started off. I'm sure the master was mentioned to spike in 'school hard' and 'destiny', and maybe other eps.