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Post by cyclica on Jan 3, 2007 15:09:59 GMT -5
I agree, the first 6 or 7 episodes of season 7 were great, better than s6, but as soon as the First arc started it went downhill.
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gumdrop331
Scooby Member
Oh, scary vampires, they die from splinters.
Posts: 874
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Post by gumdrop331 on Jan 4, 2007 19:17:26 GMT -5
I especially liked Same Time, Same Place and Showtime. They did come up with some good demons at the beginning...but then there were no more after the First came into view...
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gumdrop331
Scooby Member
Oh, scary vampires, they die from splinters.
Posts: 874
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Post by gumdrop331 on Apr 9, 2008 19:53:18 GMT -5
No one has posted here in a really long time but I just realized that if all of Anya's spells had been undone when she lost her powers that would mean the entire world would have been different. Considering that she had apparently set off the Russian Revolution and all that...
I think season 5 and the introduction of Dawn was where it all started going downhill. The story only added major holes to the show and a bunch of things that couldn't be explained. Not to mention the fact that after S5 pretty much anything that had happened in S1-S4 was no longer valid. When we first see Faith and Dawn together they say something about Faith having tried to kill Dawn, but of course we never saw that.
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Post by partcynic on Apr 9, 2008 20:22:17 GMT -5
^ I used to wonder about Anya and her magic - I've always had to block it out when watching The Wish or else I end up unable to enjoy the episode. I guess that the material from Selfless is too post-hoc to really apply in this circumstance, but it still means that thousands of people may have been brought in or phased out of existence instantly. It also brings up the issue of how the demon was able to come back for Anya in Hell's Bells - since he should have never have been transformed at all once the necklace was smashed.
I'm with you on Dawn's introduction signalling the start of the show's decline. The 'monks made her' bit has so many problems it deserves its own thread.
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Post by cyclica on Apr 10, 2008 5:38:33 GMT -5
Its weird how buffy was so eager to get back to her own universe in Superstar, as was giles in The wish, but no one minds living with fake dawn memories, or (possibly) in a universe that had already been altered by anya.
As much as I liked dawn, I admit she is the cause of a few problems. I wish we knew what buffy and the others knew (eg faith trying to kill dawn), or at least had some kind of spell reversal where everyone got their memories back.
But I certainly wouldn't say she is the cause of the show's decline. If anything it was the fault of the show trying to 'top itslef' every season with a bigger badder big bad each time, and after glory they couldn't get much bigger, and the show suffered because of it.
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gumdrop331
Scooby Member
Oh, scary vampires, they die from splinters.
Posts: 874
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Post by gumdrop331 on Apr 11, 2008 21:40:42 GMT -5
I think that one of the Scoobies turning evil would have been the biggest bad they could find because that is who Buffy loves most, but the way they did it wasn't good and it made for bad television. Also then they tried to top that and the plotline just got worse.
I do not think that Dawn herself caused the problems (although I don't like her) I think that her introduction did. The plot would have been much easier to keep consistant if Dawn had not changed it so drastically.
Glory was hard to top, though. The First was a good idea, but also a rather feeble attempt. It seems like if they had worked out its goals better it would have worked better. Because the way it ended up didn't make any sense.
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gumdrop331
Scooby Member
Oh, scary vampires, they die from splinters.
Posts: 874
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Post by gumdrop331 on Apr 11, 2008 21:42:47 GMT -5
I had an interesting discussion somewhere about smoking, breathing, and drinking. If campires don't breathe then they shouldn't be able to smoke. Even if they are capable of breathing their heart does not pump and can therefore not circulate alcohol or anything through the veins and can definately not get it to the brain. So how/why does Spike smoke and drink (other than to make him seem more badass)? It makes no sense!
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Post by partcynic on Apr 12, 2008 6:21:39 GMT -5
For me, Dawn is definitely linked with the beginning of the end. S6 and S7 were certainly poor, but they were the product of the writing flaws that started popping up en masse in S5 (dragging out plot points for longer than required; reliance on cheap character devices instead of development; endless whining and screaming under the banner of 'realism'). It doesn't help that Dawn's introduction coincided with the second biggest mistake the writers ever made - arbitrarily deciding Spike loved Buffy and always had done. Between those two flaws, there are only a handful of S5 eps that can really stand up with the best of the previous years, but there's a gulf between the issues presented by each. During that period, Spuffy was just a contrived annoyance, while Dawn was contrived and annoying, yet supposed to provide the audience's emotional centre for the season. For me, it would have worked a lot better if I hadn't been cheering Glory on.  Anyway, I think that had they eliminated Dawn (and all the continuity problems she introduced), s5 could have been just as good as the earlier ones. I have mixed feelings about whether or not the show was trying to top itself or not. Given that S5 was the last year the show aired on the WB, I always got the impression that it was designed to be the big, epic conclusion to the series' run - and when UPN picked it up for two further years, the writers basically made things up as they went along. I think that in S6 they at least had some comprehension of what they were doing (they just didn't realise how stupid it was), and that S7 was a lame attempt at dealing with the ratings fallout that resulted. Judging by comments from the time, it seems that ME heard only the 'S6 was great, but too dark and Tara shouldn't have died' voices (ignoring that fact that it wasn't dark - just slow, repetitive and melodramatic) and therefore created S7 to patch things up. As a result, we got a year that was just as dull and poorly plotted, but with an external big bad to fight against. |
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Post by partcynic on Apr 12, 2008 6:25:50 GMT -5
I had an interesting discussion somewhere about smoking, breathing, and drinking. If campires don't breathe then they shouldn't be able to smoke. Even if they are capable of breathing their heart does not pump and can therefore not circulate alcohol or anything through the veins and can definately not get it to the brain. So how/why does Spike smoke and drink (other than to make him seem more badass)? It makes no sense! Yep! That's always been an interesting one. Without blood circulation, male vampires shouldn't be able to have sex either (not that I would change anything about s2!) |
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Post by cyclica on Apr 12, 2008 7:15:04 GMT -5
^ I agree about spuffy being a big part of the show's decline. It wasn't so bad when it was one sided, but when it became a relationship is when it went downhill. Every spuffy scene was a drag. When it comes to smoking, breathing, drinking and other thinks like eating spicy buffalo wings,I just chalk it up to supernatural powers. If we can beleive vampires exist, surely its not much of a stretch if they can smoke or whatever. On angel there was a scene where wesley was talking to a giant hamburger, if I can accept that then I can accept anything. The only problem for me is when the show breaks its own rules, like saying vampires have no reflection then you watch a vamp walking past a shop window and there's a reflection there. Or angel saying he can't revive buffy in prophecy girl because he has no breath, but smokes in a later ep. I personally think vamps don't need to breathe, bug they can make air go in and out of their lungs if they want to. It happened on that occasion that angel didn't have any air in his lungs, and maybe he forgot how to breathe too. |
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Post by partcynic on Apr 12, 2008 9:07:34 GMT -5
Haha, that giant hamburger scene did make me laugh. It's true about the inconsistencies the show kept bringing up. Some of it's inevitable when you have a long-running series and many different writers, but it always bugged me how characters' pasts would always change. They kept on adding so many things to Angel's background that I ultimately became unable to find him a compelling or believable character. They also did it several times to poor Anya - her history went through quite a few changes during the series; no wonder Emma Caulfield wanted out. |
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gumdrop331
Scooby Member
Oh, scary vampires, they die from splinters.
Posts: 874
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Post by gumdrop331 on Apr 12, 2008 13:30:17 GMT -5
I get that to make a character more interesting it is good to try to delve into their past, but when you do it over and over things are bound to get screwed up. I never really had a chance to watch Angel so I can't relate to that, but I think that if you can accept anything as true then this discussion is hardly worth having. Many things are beleiveable if you chalk it up to supernatural, but the inconsistancies are sometimes very blatant.
If you watch Him you can see Spike's shadow over and over again. It is also bad when Angel or Spike has been running so they pant. That shouldn't happen. When the First is 'drowning' Spike as Drusilla in S7 it wouldn't work because he could just not breathe and he would be fine.
I think Spuffy was a bad idea not only because it was out of character for Spike, but because Buffy had already had a relationship with a vampire and she really shouldn't have had another one. Her whole thing was about being as normal as possible, plus he's a mass murderer and everything so Buffy was stupid to even go there. I think it was ok as well when it was just Spike pining for Buffy, but in S6 it was just bad...
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Post by cyclica on Apr 12, 2008 14:37:45 GMT -5
Yeah buffy already knew in the long term a relationship with a vampire won't work, as the mayor said angel (and spike) can never go outside with her, and it could get weird when she's old and he's the same age.
As for drowning spike, I just figured 'dru' wanted to annoy him by subjecting him to something unpleasant (now I think about it, maybe she was reminding him of that time in the 40s he had to swim from that submarine to shore, it must have taken him a while).
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gumdrop331
Scooby Member
Oh, scary vampires, they die from splinters.
Posts: 874
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Post by gumdrop331 on Apr 13, 2008 13:43:34 GMT -5
But he still shouldn't have thrashed around and eventually stopped moving because he wasn't drowning. You can't drown if you don't need air.
I think the writers just needed to think things through a little more. I think it is hard, seeing as they had so many writers, to keep it consistant. I just feel like they could have tried a little harder...
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Post by partcynic on Apr 13, 2008 15:30:51 GMT -5
^ They certainly could (and should have), especially given that vampires are something that had been a fundamental part of the series for six-and-a-bit years. Next thing we know, they'll be pretending that every single vampire had their soul replaced by a demon except for Spike, who was exactly the same and only went evil after his mother was mean to him. Oh, wait...  |
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Anyway, I think that had they eliminated Dawn (and all the continuity problems she introduced), s5 could have been just as good as the earlier ones.